interesting!
 
EVERYONE... should experiment with all ideas like this, if your intuition guides you to it.
 
lord knows, i've been experimenting for 30 years!
LOL
 
 
Strings:
you, know some of the biggest tones i've ever heard came from Billy Gibbons, allan holdsworth, and Yngwie Malmsteen, all users of .008 gauge sets...
so i know that string size isn't the deciding factor...
i use .009's just from years of being used to getting boxes of them at a time.
 
pickups:
i've never liked high powered pickups, i guess that's why.
 
i've always thought the low-midrange of (inductance) henries was where the meat was.
 
hot pickups are like american processed cheese, tone wise....
very homogenous, lacking 3d qualities....
 
PAF is where i like it for humbuckers, my bill lawrence L500L's are at about 6.8H, which is as hot as i'd ever want.
 
single coils, like mid 60's, around 2.4H
 
YMMV

But, but, I like American processed cheese! 

It's like that musical that Madonna sang in...Velveeta!

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
 
It's nice when the strings are tensioned so that each ones seems like a good neighbor to the others.
 
 
 
I like the clean sound of lower impedance windings. One of my Strats has a set of 6k 6k 6.6k Fralins with Alnico IIs and 42g Formvar wire.
 
I use a set of xtra light flat 10-42 flat wounds that I make by taking a 12-52 pack and discarding the 52 and adding a separate 10 on the bottom.
 
I like that clean stringy sound coming through a clean Fender amp.
 
best regards,
mike

spacey
IMO and opinion of a sound guy, guitarist, that I trust and agree with most of time...
 
If you have a high "brittle" "harsh" bite and think it's the pups...well they are probably cheap knockoffs from anyones guess where or....
It's also a sound that could be and probably from the amps speakers. Celestions (and others) are noted for that.
Here are some speakers that not only have good prices but address "spiking".
 
I don't use amps because I don't gig anymore. But I know players that use the brand I linked and they love them.
FWIW. I linked to one that mentions the spiking issue that many speakers have...don't take my word for it.

I discovered WGS a few years ago and if I sell an amp with a speaker, it's a WGS. I've tried everything from the little 8 inch speakers to the 15" guitar speaker. Not much experience with the American line but the British line is great and not made in China.
 
Thanks for the thread Spacey, happy I'm not the only one tinkering. Lollar has low wind humbuckers that are really nice and I find that Alnico 3 magnets work great on strat pickups with vintage spec windings.

craigb
Love this stuff!  Keep up the experimenting Michael!  

Thanks Craig. Glad it's interesting. Wish I knew more...but trying.

batsbrew
interesting!
 
EVERYONE... should experiment with all ideas like this, if your intuition guides you to it.
 
lord knows, i've been experimenting for 30 years!
LOL
 
Well it's paid off for you. You have wonderful tones and your recording skills have been capturing it and it's getting polished with some excellent writing skills. ( I like the vocal work too Bat)
 
I guess it can be hard to experiment if one just isn't in to it. It does take time, money and learning about stuff one may not be that interested in. I'd like to have a tech that could do all the work and just tell me all the technical why's and why nots.
 
Strings:
you, know some of the biggest tones i've ever heard came from Billy Gibbons, allan holdsworth, and Yngwie Malmsteen, all users of .008 gauge sets...
so i know that string size isn't the deciding factor...
i use .009's just from years of being used to getting boxes of them at a time.
 
I agree. I do think the metals and condition are contributing factors.
 
pickups:
i've never liked high powered pickups, i guess that's why.
 
i've always thought the low-midrange of (inductance) henries was where the meat was.
 
hot pickups are like american processed cheese, tone wise....
very homogenous, lacking 3d qualities....
 
PAF is where i like it for humbuckers, my bill lawrence L500L's are at about 6.8H, which is as hot as i'd ever want.
 
single coils, like mid 60's, around 2.4H
 
YMMV
 
I know some winders that believe when that PAF style HB gets over 7.2- just no good. The last one I wound was for a Tele and I hit 7.1 and the owner got just what he wanted. It was going to have a splitter. If not I would have gone lower. So I'm with you.

 

mike_mccue
http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
 
It's nice when the strings are tensioned so that each ones seems like a good neighbor to the others.
 
I like the clean sound of lower impedance windings. One of my Strats has a set of 6k 6k 6.6k Fralins with Alnico IIs and 42g Formvar wire.
 
The pickups I pulled were stock A5 with 6k range. I wanted to hear what lowering to A5 with 5k range had.
Last night I played through an Egnator with WGS 12" x 2 birch 13 ply cabinet- 5200 cu.in. with the US "modern" setting. ( a friend that gigs rig)
2 guitars- One I put together for him with Fralin pups (same as yours) and the one I put these pups on. 2009 US Strat-nothing changed but the pups.
Major difference. We were both surprised by the volume and tonal difference. The 5k blew away the Fralins. Better tonal range and power. Fluke? I do not know.
 
I use a set of xtra light flat 10-42 flat wounds that I make by taking a 12-52 pack and discarding the 52 and adding a separate 10 on the bottom.
 
I like that clean stringy sound coming through a clean Fender amp.
 
I like to have a full clear range because then I can manage it. I know there are players that don't use tone controls...and that's fine by me.
 
best regards,
mike

 

ampfixer
I discovered WGS a few years ago and if I sell an amp with a speaker, it's a WGS. I've tried everything from the little 8 inch speakers to the 15" guitar speaker. Not much experience with the American line but the British line is great and not made in China.
 
Thanks for the thread Spacey, happy I'm not the only one tinkering. Lollar has low wind humbuckers that are really nice and I find that Alnico 3 magnets work great on strat pickups with vintage spec windings.

Thank you.
Jason is a fantastic person. He helps cave dwellers like me and tries to help anyway he can. I designed and built my winder from information he put in a book- along with information about pickups.
 
I know it's not easy for most to experiment with pickups. They can be expensive and one just may not be sure what they have or what might help them get the sound they want.
I think there are many other things to try before replaceing them. Especially if it's a guitar that one knows is made by a reputable maker.
 
Some of the things I would do if I question the pickups for issues-
Make sure the machines aren't loose and in good working order.
Make sure the nut/bridge and action are set-up good.
Make sure the strings are good. They can be bad strings even though they're new. **** happens.
Make sure the pickup height is adjusted right.
 
If all that is good then bypass all the electronics.
Hook the pickup directly to the output jack.
Try a set of strings with different make up. If the sound it to bright and you use nickel plated steel..maybe some pure nickel will do the job. You may hear the diffence with string core changes too.
Maybe change  pots or caps values - that makes resistance changes rather than making it at the pickup and it doesn't break the bank to hear the changes. It's not rocket science either. No hard skills required and not much of a learning curve for the circuit or soldering. Getting burned is the biggest ****. Safety with the iron is probably the biggy to it all.
 
Again...just my opinion about one simple change. Going from single 6k range to 5k range. It cost me about $20.00 to wind each pickup. "Vintage" is having a gray bottom on the bobbin and wrapped the coil with white twine. A5 staggared magnets with 42 PE AWG CW- S on neck/bridge, N on middle with RW. ( all are wound CW with 7656 wraps- the leads are reversed and can be recognized because the "hot" will most often be yellow, not white or a different color than the other pups)
I gained brightness in the wound strings...exactly what I was after.
That doesn't mean I lost the lows...it means that lows were "cleared" up with highs added with no noticeable effect to the non-wound.
 
Thanks for joining in guys...it's fun and I sure enjoy the views.
 
 
 
 
 

I remember back when I was a youngster and I told a local jazz guitarist and guitar store manager that I was pretty sure I was a single coil kinda guy. I told him that I thought humbuckers just sounded muddy and inarticulate. He was kind enough to explain that I had grown up during an era when humbuckers were purposely over wound for high output and that the mid range thickness was the result. He advised me to stay open minded about humbuckers and to seek out oppurtunities to try pickups with mild output.
 
I've been interested in that general idea ever since.
 
The 5k idea seems attractive.
 
I wonder how the pickups that came on vintage "student" guitars compare? For example; My 1967 Melody Maker has light output single coils that have a bright tone if you plug it in to an amp that has enough amplification. I wonder what a late 60's Musicmaster has for comparable output? Anyone know what a set of DeArmonds on and old Gretsch have?

I can buy kit's or parts for HB's, mini-HB, P 90, single coil Strat/Tele style.
I'm not aware of anything else available and spec's with all of them are sketchy...mostly
provided by people that took them apart I think.
I'm not going any farther with winding. I can build/wind and experiment for those I listed and
that's as far as I'm going with it. It's a limited hobby.
Sorry I can't answer your questions Mike.
 
I wound two sets in the 5k range. I will be seeing if I get the same results on a different guitar. I should but
what do I know?
 

I was suggesting that those other pickups may already be 5k... not that you should wind those shape pickups. I wonder if back in the day, in an effort to save a couple hundred feet of wire, if the student guitars came with underwound pickups. I've never measured my Melody Maker or my old DeArmonds but they are much lower output than their more famous contemporaries. 
 
 
 
I was going to ask if you used the same guitar cord but did some calculations and see that unless you use a really long and really crappy cable that the cutoff frequencies for a 6k and a 5k source are generally ultrasonic.
 
e.g. 23 and 28kHz cut off frequencies for a 25 foot, 150pF/m cable. 
 
Then a more obvious question came to mind: Did both guitars have your custom 10-36 string set installed?
 
best regards,
mike

mike_mccue
I was suggesting that those other pickups may already be 5k... not that you should wind those shape pickups. I wonder if back in the day, in an effort to save a couple hundred feet of wire, if the student guitars came with underwound pickups. I've never measured my Melody Maker or my old DeArmonds but they are much lower output than their more famous contemporaries. 
 
I didn't think you were suggesting I should. I was expressing that material to build or information isn't readily available so one would probably have to own them to measure and probably disassemble, if possible, to know the details. What I listed is really all that's available for the novice. I have found youtube videos of guys with old pups that do just that.
 
 
I was going to ask if you used the same guitar cord but did some calculations and see that unless you use a really long and really crappy cable that the cutoff frequencies for a 6k and a 5k source are generally ultrasonic.
 
Yes. A new planet waves 10' cord. But I also ran the guitar through my friends stage set-up last night and I know that cord coiled look to be 25 ft one and then through is pedal board then another long cord to his amp...I noticed no difference in the tonal character...as mentioned earlier...while comparing to the Fralins.
All of his effects are true bypass.
 
e.g. 23 and 28kHz cut off frequencies for a 25 foot, 150pF/m cable. 
 
Then a more obvious question came to mind: Did both guitars have your custom 10-36 string set installed?
 
No. Different diameters. And I was surprised again that the smaller wound strings had not only the nice metallic ring but sounded as "fat" as the larger dia.
I use .010 -.046 sets on all my electric guitars so I know the sound very well.
Fender- and super bullets for the ones with trems. Pure Nickel and Nickel coated work fine for me.
 
Although the sound of the lighter gauge combined with the 5k range singles was a complete surprise to me...the playing action didn't take long to adjust to but what really stood out was the tuning stability. My first go-round with D'Addario - because they supplied the single strings I wanted- but they may have gained a new customer. I'm not sure what to contribute the tuning stability to...I had to do a set-up for the strings but I also added springs to the trem (5) and pulled it down to the body (lower pitch only)
Also has I previously mentioned Mike...I wound 6 pups and will be installing 3 (in kind) on a guitar with my normal playing gauge.
I think I will also get a set of .010-.046 from D'Addario.
Finding out what percentage of all these little changes may have is a trip...no doubt.
 
You may have missed me stating that I didn't do this has a test that I had "designed". I did it based on an article I read about the tech that handled Jimi's guitar/setup....string gauge was given. The pup size guessed was pre-CBS and knew it would be in the 5/6k range. I had 6k pups so wanted 5k's ...I knew the lower would help brighten the low end...or theoritically should.
I do know I like the results and now I can continue to determine how much the strings had in it.
 
I have to do it soon though...my friend is wanting the guitar now LOL. A guy he plays with has a Twin Reverb...he is going to try and trade him equipment for it (he knows I like those amps) and make a trade with me. That'll work. I'll put some WGS speakers in that baby...like I need an amp lol and not like I'll be out of Strats!
 
best regards,
mike