Moshkiae
Hi,
 
From a theater/film perspective, you have to make room for some fun, and not worry about recording, or anything, just playing it out and it doesn't matter what comes out. The result of this is that it creates some nice moments that you can play again, and have fun with.
 
I find it bizarre, how seriously one takes this, and then forgets how they can learn more and improve their own art. That's utterly bizarre, and weird and crazy! AND very stupid. It tells you that all you are doing is some rock'n'roll bullmerde and you don't mean crap, and your ability and talent isn't worth a nickel. QUIT NOW!
 
Recording, without having any idea what you are doing is stupid and expensive. But getting to that point has to be addressed. And in my days of directing there always was a bunch of exercises, or rehearsals, where you spent your time figuring out how to go around the table and deliver your lines properly, feeling wise, and making sure your movement makes sense and is smooth. Now, why the fudge do musicians think that they don't need to learn these things in order to figure out how to do things? However, do remember that there are schools out there (krautrock is famous for this) that never gave a cahoot about anything, and did it all live, and it is VERY WELL REMEMBERED, and most nickel adn dime players can't even consider what they did and how! But there is a level of trust and ability and communication that underlies this, that most bands are scared ****le$$ about!
 
But you have to make room for fun, and NOT EVER record it, or take a look at it. There is a part of this that needs to be let go, in order for you to gain the inner ability and freedom to fly smoother. It's one of the biggest secrets in acting! And if you think this doesn't work in music, it is because most musicians don't believe in a George Martin, or what I call a "director" to help frame things better and create communication, when there isn't any, and you guys are wasting energy in arguing!

I... I'm seeing a lot of words there... but I have no idea what you just said. o_O

Beepster
I... I'm seeing a lot of words there... but I have no idea what you just said. o_O

Perhaps if you stepped aside and were man enough to read it, and make an effort. But then, the concern is already about not communicating with your fellow musicians, and guess what you just did?
 
Very common malady with musicians. What you don't know won't hurt or help you.
 
It's too bad, that any comments/ideas about rehearsal is totally dismissed. It's what rock music is missing the most!

I read it three times, Moshie. The most I can draw from it is that you are suggesting musicians go freestyle and become comfortable doing so... which I don't believe anyone here has said is a bad thing. However, neither is hammering out parts and getting a good recording together (which you seem to be arguing against). To transfer that concept to the dramatic arts... well the stage equivalent of a studio record would be a film. Heck, we used to have shows where actors would do the entire performance uncut and simply had the cameras rolling to tape so the actors freedom and improv skills were still on display (like All in the Family). They may have done a segment over again but it did not take away from what I'm assuming you are talking about and it would be akin to a live of the floor performance.
 
But your point is a little muddled. I would, with all due respect, say that perhaps you are the one who did not communicate your ideas well which is kind of important for directing theater and film. I've never had a problem communicating musical ideas to musicians of any knowledge level or skill. In fact I've trained complete beginners to be band ready within a couple months.
 
If you are indeed implying what I think you are, which is the notion that somehow musicians who aspire to produce albums are not true artists or fooling themselves, well I have to disagree. Specific musicians in specific configurations (like a band) are an extremely limited commodity. I can't just call up Primus or Tower of Power to come perform in my apartment while I sip on my morning tea. Also bands change line ups, breakup or have members outright die so without a time machine or learning the dark art of necromancy I'm not going to be able to go back to enjoy Live at Leeds era Who. Even then I may prefer those performances over something else they would offer up because they always changed how the songs were played each gig (which is that whole live freedom you seem to be referring to). There are also things that can be accomplished in a studio that can't or shouldn't replicated/attempted live.
 
Really, if you are indeed poopooing the studio process for capturing a band's music it seems like a bizarre and extreme "purist" mentality that would deprive the world of so much. The ability to capture music to wax, then tape and now bits and bytes truly is one of the best things to happen to musicians and music lovers alike.
 
It also makes me wonder... (and don't get me wrong here, I enjoy your oddball posts) what the heck you are doing hanging out on a recording forum if you disagree with the process so much. lol
 
;-)

I am with you Beepster,  I can rarely follow what seems like acid based rants that he goes on....   I think Moshkaie, that you were trying to insult me in the second paragraph, and if you were sir please feel free to bite me!  You don't know me well enough to make a judgement call.
 
I think he is advocating just practicing freely, no pressure, no recording, and no later reflection on it, because that will allow things to flow and ya don't need recordings because it will be "well remembered"..... WTF ever that means.  haha.
 
.....I like the walls because they sway in around in circles man.... and my favorite flavor is soap...

In the end...all these methods CAN be effective.

If you're doing covers, I rehearse, then record, then rehearse some more....LOL

In the case of originals, you can record, get the idea down, work out your parts, get
it all down to what you want, and then rehearse to make sure it's tight before you take
it on the road.

If you're already on the road, and the band wants to "work it out" before recording, that's not
a bad idea either.

I guess what I'm saying is, it comes down to "which way works best for you all as a band"...

With music, while there are "rules" per se...they are more "Guidelines" to a creative process,
which really can't be put in a box (the process - not recording "in the box" LOL).

The comment on my manhood gave me a chuckle. There is obviously some intelligence behind the poster that goes by Moshie but one has to wonder how much of it is performance art. I've been known to do that myself on occasion. Just not on this forum... well, I kind of sauced up that last post for dramatic flair but not to the level I'm capable of.
 
And I didn't respond to your reply earlier... and yes, sadly in this ole world being a dick is occasionally necessary (and unfortunately more so as we bravely march on toward this increasingly harsh society we've built for ourselves) but I abhor it. I was a rather meek and non aggressive young man when I launched myself into the thick of the music scene and "adult" life in general and really got kicked around quite a bit for a while. I learned to push back and be aggressive but always hated it. It made me even angrier that I even had to do it in the first place because productivity and common sense shouldn't need to be forced upon people especially in regards to their own stated goals in life. I loved my live days and desperately want to play out again but holy crap am I ever happy to be able to just do stuff on my own now in my own home without all the bullcrap. It's almost like everything I've done in the past has lead me to this exact point in time. Now I'M the only screwup that can hold me back... and I more or less know how to keep my own arse in line.
 
Best of luck to with whatever goes down. Like I said, at least try to get the beds down (drums and hopefully bass) then the rest is easily done after the fact what with all our fancy home studio stuff now. What a godsend the modern DAW is for motivated musicians. Removes the whole "herding cats" crap dealing with actual bands can be.
 
And yes... I'm a little bitter. lol

spacey

Guitarhacker
we were before the days of decent home studios)
 

I call BS Herb. I know I'm older or about the same age as you and there were many home studios around me in 1970.
You apparently just weren't around or knew of any.
..........
The problem was what the hell did you do with a tape?  ............. If you've been there then you know...they don't even open it!
 
Back then that tape was limited to the local radio station IF you were lucky enough to know the owner and DJ 

No BS..... In the 70's, 80's, and even into the early 90's,  very few musicians had the financial means to set up a "decent" home studio. Today, with a spare computer and $40 in software you can have a studio of sorts.  The quality of which can rival a "pro" studio's sound.
 
Sure, anyone who had a reel to reel or a cassette machine, a mic and a spare bedroom,  could record, but the quality just wasn't there. I knew of several guys who had reel to reel ( 2 track stereo) machines and a 6 channel mixer and called that a "home studio". There were 4 track reel to reel machines, and 4 track cassettes, which, incidentally, I had one of each at different times. I still would not call that a studio.
 
Here in NC during that time, if you wanted to record, you went to either  Kinston, or, a studio in, of all places, Bailey, or Raleigh to get good recordings done.  I eventually met one guy who had a "home studio" in Goldsboro, where, the owner,  was in a bluegrass band, and also a very well off and successful  business man, purchased the mixer and 16 track machine from Sound Hut (Kinston) when Clark upgraded to 24 tracks. That was the closest to a home studio that existed around here during those years. The 16 track tape machines were just too expensive for the average picker to afford. I demoed a few tunes in Kinston and Goldsboro before I got into multitrack tape home studio gear.
 
Heck, even now in NC, the number of musicians with "decent" home studios  around here, is limited. I'm not in the circles of musicians now like I was during my gigging days, but through the grapevine, I don't know of many who have home studios.

Guitarhacker

spacey

Guitarhacker
we were before the days of decent home studios)
 

I call BS Herb. I know I'm older or about the same age as you and there were many home studios around me in 1970.
You apparently just weren't around or knew of any.
..........
The problem was what the hell did you do with a tape?  ............. If you've been there then you know...they don't even open it!
 
Back then that tape was limited to the local radio station IF you were lucky enough to know the owner and DJ 

No BS..... In the 70's, 80's, and even into the early 90's,  very few musicians had the financial means to set up a "decent" home studio. Today, with a spare computer and $40 in software you can have a studio of sorts.  The quality of which can rival a "pro" studio's sound.
 
Sure, anyone who had a reel to reel or a cassette machine, a mic and a spare bedroom,  could record, but the quality just wasn't there. I knew of several guys who had reel to reel ( 2 track stereo) machines and a 6 channel mixer and called that a "home studio". There were 4 track reel to reel machines, and 4 track cassettes, which, incidentally, I had one of each at different times. I still would not call that a studio.
 

Yes, BS.
You said, "we were before the days of decent home studios" and I said BS. Now you're saying very few musicians had the financial means to set one up...make up your mind.
 
My apology Herb. You have the right to believe whatever you want. We're not exposed to the same things and see things differently.

I like to write and play for my enjoyment. edit> No... really, I am old and lazy, but happy enough. At least my wife enjoys my music!
 
YOU... are moving in the right direction and though I have not yet read all the responses if I were you I would set everything up and sort of put them in a corner, just record it. If they refuse then, I think you have a bigger problem and should move on. I think you should, in general, take Beeps advice and make them "man up", as it were. I wish someone had done that to me in 1971 when I knew everything, didn't need to learn lyrics, and was more interested in getting high than getting good. Then again, I don't think I ever wanted to go on the road. Married home life suits me better.
 
J

If I was in your situation, I'd record all the songs by myself and pass the finished disks on to the other band members as 'our new CD'.
It probably wouldn't be long before one or more of them would want to re-record their parts because what I recorded was &*%#&^.