HoRNet
Hi, Saverio from HoRNet Plugins here,
 
Mike, reading your post I felt the need to drop in and say something.
 
HoRNet plugins it's just me on the technical side and i can assure you I know what I'm talking about when i speak of voltages since I have a degree in electronics and I've been recording since the 90s on tape and ADAT and then on computers, I also have quite a background as live engineer. 
 
I don't know about you and probably you are much more experienced than me, after all these forums are full of wonderful people!
 
But i must say that the VU Meter is not an experiment, it's one of the first plugins i made because i find peak meters inside DAW useless, they don't track interpeak samples and actually only the maximum instantaneous recorded mathematical representation of the recorded voltage, to get a more realistic idea of the voltage you'll have on the converter's output you need to at least low pass your digital signal (like your reconstruction converter filter does)
 
Regarding the numbers i state on the page, 0VU ARE +4dBU by definition in standard analog pro audio, this is how every mixer is made. Sadly this is not how every A/D converter is made so a serious professional manufacturer (like Lynx for example) states in the spec where their +4dBU is set regarding the converted dBFS signal (Lynx Aurora for example is set to -16dBFS if I'm not mistaken)
 
Summing all together it means that if you have a Lynx Aurora and you put a sine wave into it and read -16dBFS on your peak meter, you are hitting you converter at +4dBU, it means that you have 1.23 Volts RMS or 3.47 Volts peak-to-peak.
If you are recording at -6dBFS you already are hitting the Lynx Aurora with 10.98 Volts peak-to-peak, the Aurora should not have problem coping with that since (if I sill remember) it has a +/- 12Volts supply so, 24Volts of range before severely distorting your signal, but many prosumer converters doesn't perform so well, they have lower operative ranges, so you should stay very far away from the 0dBFS mark.
 
You are right when you say that the peak meter should be enough, but when recording peaks (especially if very short) re of no interest to us since our ear is unable to hear them, if in the tape days we would have wanted to record every peak each recording would have been filled with tape hiss since many percussive sounds have very strong peaks, fortunately those peaks can be sacrificed to get a better effective recording.
This is where a VU comes handy, it measures the "perceived" level and not the peak so you can judge better how your ear is going to hear the sound, if it peak on the peak meter but has a very low level on the VU you should probably check you mike settings or place a fast limiter on the recording chain because all those peaks you are recording won't allow you to reach the desired final loudness and honestly, why do you want to record stuff you are going to throw away?
 
After all anyway it all comes down to recording preferences, I record using a VU meter because this is what I've been trained to do and I'm used to do but if you get good results without one go on and do it!
 
Regarding the AutoGain, it's a way too speed up the gain staging at mix time for me, I often work with many synth signals and dance stuff sent by other producers that blast the level of each track to the maximum during production, since i use many analog emulations I have to trim those levels down if I don't want to distort everything and clicking a button and have the plugin set it automatically to the specified VU max level really cuts the boring gain staging process down.
 
I hope this clarifies a little the reasoning behind the plugin, if you have any other doubt or objection I'm open for discussion, after all this thread could also result in an improved plugin!
 
Saverio
 

Well said Saverio!

I feel like I'm learning stuff. I didn't mean to, but it's happening.

I use this plugin for mixing and not recording to set gain levels for the analog emulation plugins like Slate VCC and Toneboosters Reelbus. The only problem I have with it is on sharp transient material like snare tracks the track will clip with the autogain button engaged and won't trim the gain how I think it should. Here I just remove it or use it to turn the gain down to acceptable levels myself. I am happy with the 5 bucks and change it cost.

Jimbo21
I use this plugin for mixing and not recording to set gain levels for the analog emulation plugins like Slate VCC and Toneboosters Reelbus. The only problem I have with it is on sharp transient material like snare tracks the track will clip with the autogain button engaged and won't trim the gain how I think it should. Here I just remove it or use it to turn the gain down to acceptable levels myself. I am happy with the 5 bucks and change it cost.

Yep, I've used it in the Pro channel for the same purpose. I like it a lot.

Saverio,
 
First, THANK YOU for coming in! You'll find this place has lots of heated discussions, but it's almost always in the interest of education and helping each other out.
 
I'm still a little fuzzy on exactly how to use your VU meter plugin, so maybe you can simplify things form, and use this as an educational opportunity for us all.
 
So, I use a Mackie 1200f for my input device and according to specs, that's +4db. I try to record with my peaks on the Sonar meters at -6db. I noticed when I put VU Meter on a pre-recorded kick, when Sonar showed -6db your plugin was showing 0. This seems correct from what I understand, but I am fuzzy on the "why".
 
so, question #1, are the VU meters simply more accurate and I should use them to target a 0db when recording rather Sonar's meters reading -6db?
 
Now, question #2. For gain staging pre-recorded tracks, does the VU meter look at the entre wave form and set the gain once, so you don't have to find the peaks and manually set the trim in Sonar? If so, I see the value in that. Or, as I think I understand it, does it ride the volume as the track plays, which would alter the dynamics of the piece and something I would not want to do.
 
Again, thanks for coming in and I really look forward to understanding this better...

Jimbo21
I use this plugin for mixing and not recording to set gain levels for the analog emulation plugins like Slate VCC and Toneboosters Reelbus. The only problem I have with it is on sharp transient material like snare tracks the track will clip with the autogain button engaged and won't trim the gain how I think it should. Here I just remove it or use it to turn the gain down to acceptable levels myself. I am happy with the 5 bucks and change it cost.

I believe a VU meter is supposed to have a slow response and not react to transients aggressively, which is why they are good at leveling projects, and why it's probably not reacting to your snare the way you expect. As I understand it...it reacts more like rms than it does to peak. I'm sure these other guys can explain what it does better than I can.
 
@smallstonefan...I've noticed when using the VUmeter that if I play the track all the way through, it will find most peaks and level off. When you open the project again it is still where it was and doesn't ride the volume. If you have it set to a reference of -18 and to auto adjust to -0, it may have to turn the track up or down. For example let's say it turns it down -3.9 db. That's where it stays. It doesn't bounce around. You should use the VST 2 version though. VST 3 isn't fixed for Sonar yet.

An old rule of thumb for when you HAVE to use a VU meter on a piece of gear that you are sending to digital device that only has Peak Program Metering is to reference +6VU on the analog gear to your target DBFS on the digital gear.
 
In other words, send a tone signal out of the analog gear at +6VU and set the inputs of the digital gear so that you see -20dBFS, or -16dBFS, or -12dBFS (what ever works well with the digital device) and you will see that when you send musical content out of the analog device that the meters will more or less move with a similar rhythm as you see on the PPM. The peaks will still sneak by but they will come in approximately 6 dB lower then they would have if you set your tone using 0VU on the analog device and so now you can watch the VU meters on your analog device and not bang the meters on your digital device up in to the red.
 
FWIW, this method is independent of any need to know what dBU or dBV the systems are designed to work at. It is simply a method that helps correlate the meter action and it is very effective.
 
best regards,
mike
 
edit spelling

Lynx Aurora specs:
 
http://www.lynxstudio.com/nav/getFile.asp?i=87&t=productfile
 
Input Levels:
+4dBu Nominal, +20dBu Max
or switch to
-10dBV Nominal, +6dBV
 
I'll leave it to you to look up the meaning of the word Nominal
 
The Lynx specs also point out that the THD at -6DBFS at the input conversion is a massive 0.0006%.
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
edit spelling

clintmartin

Jimbo21
I use this plugin for mixing and not recording to set gain levels for the analog emulation plugins like Slate VCC and Toneboosters Reelbus. The only problem I have with it is on sharp transient material like snare tracks the track will clip with the autogain button engaged and won't trim the gain how I think it should. Here I just remove it or use it to turn the gain down to acceptable levels myself. I am happy with the 5 bucks and change it cost.

I believe a VU meter is supposed to have a slow response and not react to transients aggressively, which is why they are good at leveling projects, and why it's probably not reacting to your snare the way you expect. As I understand it...it reacts more like rms than it does to peak. I'm sure these other guys can explain what it does better than I can.
 
@smallstonefan...I've noticed when using the VUmeter that if I play the track all the way through, it will find most peaks and level off. When you open the project again it is still where it was and doesn't ride the volume. If you have it set to a reference of -18 and to auto adjust to -0, it may have to turn the track up or down. For example let's say it turns it down -3.9 db. That's where it stays. It doesn't bounce around. You should use the VST 2 version though. VST 3 isn't fixed for Sonar yet.

 
That makes sense Clint! I should have thought of that! Doh (Where's a Homer Simpson emoticon when you need one).

mike_mccue
An old rule of thumb for when you HAVE to use a VU meter on a piece of gear that you are sending to digital device that only has Peak Program Metering is to reference +6VU on the analog gear to your target DBFS on the digital gear.
 
In other words, send a tone signal out of the analog gear at +6VU and set the inputs of the digital gear so that you see _20dBFS, or -16dBFS, or -12dBFS (what ever works well with the digital device) and you will see that when you send musical content out of the analog device that the meters will more or less move with a similar rhythm as you see on the PPM. The peaks will still sneak by but they will come in approximately 6 dB lower then they would have if you set your tone using 0VU on the analog device and so now you can watch the VU meters on your analog device and not bang the meters on your digital device up in to the red.
 
FWIW, this method is independent of any need to know what dBU or dBV the systems are designd to work at. It is simply a method that helps correlate the meter action and it is very effective.
 
best regards,
mike

 
Very informative Mike, thanks!