gswitz
I can hear the music ok while I mix it. That isn't the issue for me.
When mixing for one stereo in one location, it's not too tricky to get a good sounding mix.
As Mettalus says, the issue is making a mix to be played anywhere someone feels like it. You want listeners to be able to hear the music clearly and enjoy it.
Bassist wants more bass.
Drummer wants more drumz.
Guitarists just want more. :-)
It's a tricky balance to get a good mix. I think because of the hard bass boost in my car, I under do the bass. I use my car as ceiling for bass levels. If I can't enjoy it in the car with a particular bass setting, then I will turn it down in the mix. I listen to lots of great pro recordings in my car and none of them sound unreasonably bassy on my car stereo.
Still, it may be that I should just let go some and mix into a zone where I'm just less comfortable.
It'll e x p a n d m y m i n d.
:-)
Hi Geoff,
First off, I think you are a pretty good engineer getting good results.
Secondly, I feel (even though I too was once a victim of this) you are over-thinking things, over testing and probably over analyzing or comparing mixes to people who may have 30+ years under their belts and 2 million in gear/facilities. You're good brother....and you're putting out good quality no matter what you're using these days. :)
Thirdly, the part of your comment that I put in bold text is something you need to fix. You should never have to rely on a car to judge your bass control. Though this seems to work for you, it tells me there are things you need to fix with your monitors. It's good to be able to listen in your car and be happy, but we should never let that car value go further than it needs to be.
Get a nice sub if you don't have one, get ARC and let it flatten your monitors at the least, and see how you fair. Quite a few people will try and talk you out of a sub especially in a smaller room. Those near-fields claim to go down to a certain frequency, but let me tell you, bass will always be a tough one to judge unless you have something capable of giving you that low end in all the right places.
At the worst case, if a sub makes you mix bass light, you have too much of it in the mix. Lower the sub, you'll mix bass heavier. Too little sub, you'll mix bass heavy. It takes a little trial and error...but you should have it dialed in within 2-3 mixes.
You and I have talked in the past and you mentioned that you liked some of the mixes I've done....I use ARC and it works. Bats uses ARC....if you like his mixes, there's more incentive. Bapu uses ARC....quite a few have consistent mixes with it that sound really good. According to some of the data provided on the net, ARC is not supposed to work or make much of a difference. According to MY data...my ears/my end result....it's incredible, has made my mixes better, I get done faster and I never second guess anything.
If you have all of the above, there may be a possibility that you have to re-correct the room with ARC. I have a pdf I created that I can share that will tell you all the steps to take so you can check things over. You have to be meticulous or ARC may fail.
I just rebuilt my music room in my house. 12x12 room that I do quite a bit of work in when I'm not at the big studio down the shore. I was concerned about starting over. I had so much stuff in this room, it was crazy and looked like a little music store. But having all that stuff deadened the room quite a bit. Needless to say, I rebuilt it from the ground up. I ARC'd it and it failed.....checked my own notes and I was the one that failed. LOL! Re-ARC'd it and it's perfect now.
I have no bass traps, no ugly decor, use 3 different subs, 3 different monitor rigs, and what I mix here, sounds the way it should everywhere. I just bought a new Jeep and the bass is a little heavy in there...even on mixes that are not my own as well as the radio. So I brought the bass down 2 increments and it sounds the same as it does in my Vette and my Avalanche...which both have the same Bose system.
At the worst case, ARC corrects your monitors to a flat response. From there, you can treat your room if need be with other stuff. Now another thing to keep in mind, you are listening to material on your car speakers that is mastered. Most DIY guys mix more bass in their mixes than there needs to be. Or, they master and over-do it. A professional master done by someone who knows what they are doing gives you good bass...not rumbly bass.
Most guys don't know what good bass is to even know how or what to add. I'm totally serious when I say this. A mix done in a pro studio is not loaded with bass. It's actually pure and pretty neutral. The mastering adds the other stuff, and usually it's not extreme unless there are instructions to do so or a producer is looking for something specific.
If you listen to pro mixes done in the 70's and 80's/early 90's (of any style) you don't hear any rumbly bass. As the years have gone on, you hear more bass, but it's tighter bass....it doesn't rumble unless you listen to something created in competition for the volume wars. There are so many things we do in mastering that people don't notice. The reason being? It's like a compressor...what you don't blatantly hear is how it is supposed to be done. For example, I may add 50 Hz to a recording....but it may be a tight Q 50 Hz where it enhances, but does not dominate. You're not going to get thrust and rumble out of it. That said, there has to be a reason to add that frequency. We just don't add it for the sake of, ya know?
So there are some things to think about. Just do your thing man....you're good at it. The bass sound you have in this song is fine by my ears. Unless you are going for something specific, if it sounds good, it is good. As far as bass drive goes...I personally hate that type of sound. Not that my opinion matters, but I come from the school of
"bass that sounds nearly like a piano with low end". Especially for stuff that is classic rock sounding. I just mixed and mastered a band in Cali called "Points North". Instrumental rock...but the bass tone is one of the best I have ever achieved. Some of it due to me, some of it due to the player and his choice of bass.
I know in the 60's and early 70's we had some bass drive at times, but man...some of it was done well, some of it was horrible. The good dirt you may be looking for usually doesn't come from any plugins. The reason being, no one (other than UAD) knows what proper saturation is supposed to sound like IMHO. I've never heard anything give you the good drive we all seek when we need this sort of thing in plugin format.
As you know, there is a difference between distortion and saturation. I just don't like any drive on a bass unless it's tube drive from an outboard source or tape saturation. (in moderation) Everything else falls way short...unless you have the UAD stuff. Even they aren't perfect, but their tape sims are the closest I have ever heard and their Fatso compressors are off the hook for that as well.
Whatever the case, a little sizzle can be good....but the key word there is "a little" and you HAVE to have the right source giving you sizzle. Those channel sims....oh man...no offense to Cake, Waves or anyone else that has them...but....I hate them. I've worked with tape and outboard gear as long as I have without. Someone needs to take a step back and really listen to what this stuff is supposed to sound like. It makes me wonder how old the guys are that are simulating these pieces at the creation/code stage. If they ain't 50 or 60, they ain't lived it.
Also, though these channel tool artifacts exist and may have been used on pro albums using the big consoles, in all my schooling with actual SSL and NEVE consoles, we NEVER over-drove the channels in those boards. If we did, it sounded like @ss x10...and let me tell you, there was nothing magical or musical about it. I'd rather saturate from something MADE to saturate.
The pre's on those consoles were made to produce clean, clear signals. If someone did drive them, they are kidding themselves if they think it sounded good. Heck, anyone giving them props is just kissing up...unless it was done for effect on purpose. LOL! That's just me though...use whatever works man. We always drove signals from tube pre's or outboard gear that actually sounded musical and pleasing to the ears.
The bass tones guys use today with modern music......uggh...full blown distortion. I'm open to change....I accept it, I understand it....but that said, I can't help that I feel it sounds terrible and degrades the sound while attempting to hide the imperfections kinda like a guitarist hiding behind effects. It's just bad in my opinion.
I know you're not looking for anything that extreme. You could always re-amp the bass through that Ampeg SVX sim. I've found that to be one of the best bass sims out there and my "go to" when I need a little something else. These days, I'm getting an incredible sound going right into my Midas M32 with a DI and a little compression printed in real time. The Midas pre's are really good...so it's like having a super pricey front end. Other times I have great results with a bass POD or some other pre-amp. Sometimes we take a live feed from an amp, sometimes I mic the cab (though I just about never like that sound) whatever we do, we end up with good tones thank God. :)
At any rate, this message was pretty much to pat you on the back while also sharing a few things with you on the side. Try not to over-think this stuff. Sometimes less is more and sometimes a basic sound is all that is needed. The stuff I've heard you share has been sounding good. I might not post as often as I used to, but I'm always listening and reading. :)
-Danny