dubdisciple
Sharke and rain. Not once did I mention anything about thugs or anything related. I said that conversations on such tend to bring out statements with racist elements. Not once did I say not liking rap or liking rap by white rappers made one racist.

Craigb. One of the sad things about what you said about most of the popular "thuggish" type rap coming from uneducated, etc is that many of these so called thugs DO know better. Many are educated and choose that path because it is financially lucrative. When rap was confined mostly to poorly educated people it was not "gangster" at all. It was mostly spontaneous party chants and variations of Jamaican toasting. The next phase saw a rise of "concscious" rappers. The likes of public enemy, krs-one, tribe called qwest were big for a bit. It was when rap became pop product for mass consumption by people of all social and economic backgrounds that it became so negative. There are Juliard graduates making songs about hos. Like you said..we are not the demographic for the music. Just like our parents were not tbe demographic for Sid Vicious or many other acts deemed highly offensive in their day. I recall how appalled my grandmother used tobe at acts now reverred today. She hates rap too.

Can you give us an example of these "statements with racist elements"? Seems like a pretty serious accusation to make without something to back it up. And who are these Juliard graduates making songs about ho's? I also think it's unfair to compare what we're talking about here to the punk movement. It's not just a matter of the older generation disapproving of something new and shocking, it's a matter of something which is unquestionably linked to an inner city culture which is getting babies shot dead in the street. 

I actually checked the current top 10 rap songs at the moment. Cant say I liked one of them but again it illustrates that often the criticisms are based on stereotypes and selected anecdotes that ignore the reality. Not one was created by a sample loop with an 80's riff. Ironically you are MORE likely to find songs based on sample loops among underground rappers with more positive lyrics who are "critically acclaimed" but far less popular to the masses. In fact, the more ignorant the rap the less likely it is to be composed of sample loops. With that said, I'm not trying to claim trap beats that contain no loops are exactly high art but merely that the dominance of such totally shatters the stereotype. Loop dominated rap scores a hit once in awhile but repetitive synth driven rap rules at the moment. If you don't believe me peep Billboard.

dubdisciple
I actually checked the current top 10 rap songs at the moment. Cant say I liked one of them but again it illustrates that often the criticisms are based on stereotypes and selected anecdotes that ignore the reality. Not one was created by a sample loop with an 80's riff. Ironically you are MORE likely to find songs based on sample loops among underground rappers with more positive lyrics who are "critically acclaimed" but far less popular to the masses. In fact, the more ignorant the rap the less likely it is to be composed of sample loops. With that said, I'm not trying to claim trap beats that contain no loops are exactly high art but merely that the dominance of such totally shatters the stereotype. Loop dominated rap scores a hit once in awhile but repetitive synth driven rap rules at the moment. If you don't believe me peep Billboard.

I don't think sample loops are the issue. Some of that 80's hip hop was genuinely inventive and charming, and most of all it was gritty (early samplers?) When I hear modern rap it just sounds like they're phoning it in and not even trying to be inventive or creative any more. 

Sharke...the funny thing is i agree.  Jay-z's last album, in my opinion was the laziest multi-platinum album ever

I really hate to post something like this, but since yiou asked for it , this "lovely" piece of art comes from a production team headed by a product of Julliard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dchF_dbYCaA
 
I'm not trying to claim Julliard is regularly cranking out this type of trash and the rapper himself certainly not a product of Julliard. My whole point was that rap passed the point of being made by mostly non-musically trained urban youth long ago.  The typical rap producer these days is college educated and from a middle class background even if what the end product is tends to not reflect that.  Many high profile names in rap are not what they appear and assume the "thug" persona because middle class America eats it up.  Rick Ross was a corrections officer and portrays himself as some kind of drug dealing kingpin.  Wocka Flocka graduated with honors.  I would rather eat boiled cat food then listen to either of these two, but it's because I simply don't enjoy their music. 

As much as i dislike modern rap, it's not getting babies shot dead in the street.  Babies get shot dead in the street because they live in terrible neighborhoods where people get shot dead in the street.  If you can show me statistical evidence to show that the kind of rap that is popular affects the murder rate of inner city babies, I would love to see it.  Don't get me wrong, I can't even listen to the radio because I find this stuff so unappealing, but rap is more like the manifested symptom that gets all the attention instead of the disease.  The average buyer of rap is a subarban teen white male.
 

Hi,
 
You guys need to go listen to European rappers and some of the mixes and things they do there.
 
American Rap is not as inventive, or as good, although in terms of lyrics and spoken word, they might be a lot better than the European counterparts.
 
Education, by the way, is not a good measure for musical talent and ability, and I think we should drop that discussion ... there are just as many rockers that have an education and then some as there are rockers that are bums and only know 3 chords, as there are rockers that can only play the top ten for the Red Lion circuit and Las Vegas! And they think that stretching and getting on your tip toes like a ballerina is cool in a solo!
 
I'm not a great fan of "American Rap", because it is mostly bland and empty inside. In many cases it is so vain and empty that excusing it as a song, is already a stretch. But it is the American way, to be aggressive and go for the gold and the win, so I really would not blame anyone for trying.
 
Extend that to a girl losing her virginity and singing about it, and we think it is all about some twerking or silly game! Is that any better than rap? Or is it the same thing!

On that note, I'm going to bow out of this convo because i doubt the op ever wanted it to go here and I apologize that I unintentionally caused it to go in this direction.  I also feel weird being in a position that seems like I am defending something I don't even like.  I'll just leave this topic alone because, it's a silly fight that comes down to some people like rap and some don't.  I doubt a single word I post will give any of you even a pause for reflection.  Again, my apologies.  A great day to all.

What my ears like they seem to be the best guide I have found yet.
 
The main advantage I have found with this method is you listen to a very wide a diverse spectrum rather than limiting to so called critical classifications.

Hi,
 
At least, I don't think I trashed rap. There is a place for it, but not in my selections of music! But there has been some rap in various albums I have, up to and including 777, Ryuichi Sakamoto, Gil Scott Heron, Pipero, Peter Hammill, Kate Bush, Alan Stivell and so many others, though I tend to not enjoy the american selloff special that is all beat and no music, with rhymes over it. However, us saying that those folks don't have anything to say is quite hippocriticial!
 
Goodness ... guess what opera is missing! Specially Wagner!
 
It would be the same as trashing the folks here! Gets nothing done or accomplished, and it would sadden way too many folks!