ttoz
I don't understand how logic can be so raved about when in 2013 it can't time automation properly. 

Simple, no 2 persons work the same.
 
I never had any issue w/ automation in Logic - or if I had, I probably compensated otherwise. I do remember one EQ plug-in which didn't seem to work as expected and was hard to automate. Solution? Ditch the EQ. Problem solved.
 
One could argue that that's just me - but then, I know quite a lot of folks using Logic day in day out and never heard them complain about it - nor does it prevent them from delivering media on time. And I'm obviously not talking about weekend warriors and bedroom producers.
 
As you say, the grass isn't always greener. For me, Sonar and its glitches have a much more negative impact on my workflow than anything in Logic, no matter how perfect its automation is...

When was the last time you actually used Sonar Rain? What version as well please.

Rain

ttoz
I don't understand how logic can be so raved about when in 2013 it can't time automation properly. 

Simple, no 2 persons work the same.
 
I never had any issue w/ automation in Logic - or if I had, I probably compensated otherwise. I do remember one EQ plug-in which didn't seem to work as expected and was hard to automate. Solution? Ditch the EQ. Problem solved.
 
One could argue that that's just me - but then, I know quite a lot of folks using Logic day in day out and never heard them complain about it - nor does it prevent them from delivering media on time. And I'm obviously not talking about weekend warriors and bedroom producers.
 
As you say, the grass isn't always greener. For me, Sonar and its glitches have a much more negative impact on my workflow than anything in Logic, no matter how perfect its automation is...

Hi Rain thanks for the reply. Fair enough, but my guess would be that you don't use plugins that have latency or UAD stuff. In that case you won't have an issue with Logic's automation. It only is a problem when PDC is involved.
 
I actually need the help of guys like you to explain to me what is up with "sonar niggles".. so i have some insight as i doubt they are going to give me a second demo without me reformatting the PC which i don't want to do.
 
As someone who knows logic inside and out and loves it to death and to consider leaving it is like heresy, i can tell you for me to do that means i just couldn't take the issues anymore. If there is something about sonar that is deal breakingg for some, it might well be for me too, so some forward knowledge would really be appreciated.
 
 

wow i see sonar upgrade from my produce 8 to producer x2 is $99 this month. WOW. so glad i waited.
 
Ok now it's worth it to me, i am going to buy it right now, even if i can never sell it again nor ever use it, no demo nag screens and no "pressure" with time is really worth $99 for me to get to know it properly and see if i want to switch.
 
I guess i'll know myself soon what has more niggles lol. hehe.
 

ttoz - thanks for the insight.  I know the grass is greener.  I've been with Sonar since the early days.  Never tried any other DAW.  I'm excited to get a MacBook Pro and try the Logic software.  It seems to be very well designed. There are obviously going to be strengths with Sonar and strengths with Logic.  
 
A couple things about Logic for me that might be negative:
1) Drum Mapping doesn't look flexible.  In Sonar I can create a drum map with only the kit pieces I want to see, and arrange them however I want - for example - putting all Hi Hats together, all toms together, etc.  Logic seems to only show drum kit pieces in the order of the midi note value.  It shows a midi keyboard on the left.  You can't re-arrange drum maps - is this true?  
2) Sends on tracks in Logic are not named - they just say Bus 1, Bus 2, etc.  Sonar puts the name of the buss on the track send which makes it a little easier to see what's going on.
3) Tools - Sonar's Smart Tool is very functional - by adding a Ctl or Shift or Alt to mouse click, or just hovering over a midi note a certain way you can get just about any tool you need.  I never have to go up and change tools.  Looks like Logic wants you to go up and grab different tools for different functions.  Does Logic have any kind of Smart Tool that is a strong as Sonar's?
 
That said, I'm looking forward to Logic - there are so many cool things about it.  One thing I always wished Sonar had was the ability to set project Start and End points. Logic has them.  I also like the Global track concept.  And Summing folders which allow multiple midi instruments to be driven by one midi track - great for layering.  Sonar doesn't have this. 

1) You can create hyper sets and reorder, delete and rename as you need. The hyper editor is how you do drums properly in logic and it's pretty intuitive. there's one major problem. As of version X you STILL can't save the sets themselves. The only way is to create a project template and start off with that. 
 
2) You are right.. you can name the aux channels whatever you want but the bus channels they are connected to just come up as bus 1 or whatever when you route their effects to a send on a track.
 
3) you are right, i am constantly changing tools. You CAN set a second tool of your choice to the command key, i have the marquee (range selection) set to that. But still, it's alot of swapping around.
 

Thanks for the insight.  I have the Logic Manual and am looking through.  I probably won't really know until I get a mac and install the program.  There are very limited screen shots in the manual.  They call them "Lane sets" and they look interesting.  What I'm used to in Sonar's drum maps is that I can display 80 or so midi notes on the screen at once - very dense - so I can see the whole drum set at once, and I use a lot of different articulations in Superior.  Not sure you can get that kind of density in Logic?  But the Lane sets look like they may provide more flexibility for other things.
 
I use EWSO with Keyswitching.  Keyswitching can be frustrating in Sonar because there is no provision at all for dealing with them.  Cubase has some pretty cool ways of working with keyswitches.  I'm wondering if Logic's Lane Sets can be used in combination with their Piano Roll view to help keyswitching?  
 
I do like the way Sonar can display the PRV and midi controller lanes and drum maps all together.   Wondering if Logic's lane sets can be used along with their PRV.
 
Sorry for all the questions.  I don't have a Mac yet.  Waiting for the MacBook Pro to come out with the Haswell processors this fall.

First, since it's just been mentioned, I'm one of those who LOVE the tools in Logic and the way they work, especially the marquee - which can be used for a bunch of different things - including setting a temporary playback range/start position. I thought it was the most useless tool when I first began but it has become my go to thing and one of the advantages over Sonar for me.
 
You can switch tools using the numeric keypads or by pressing escape and clicking on the tool you want. You can also assign different tools to different combinations of mouse + keyboard shortcut. You can assign different tools to different mouse boutons - up to 3. Lastly, there is a behavior that is somewhat similar to the smart tool.
 
Whenever my cursor travels on the lower half of a waveform, it turns into the marquee tool, enabling me to select/mark range for playback, set playback start temporarily, etc... The marquee is pretty much a smart tool.
 
TTOZ, I read your post on GS and it's obvious from the start that you know your stuff and that you aren't just complaining. I trust that the issues you mentioned can be duplicated repeatedly. And as you guess, I don't use UAD, nor do the people I've had the opportunity to visit - except for one, and I'll be getting in touch w/ him soon enough in this regard because I plan on adding a UAD card to my rig. It is entirely possible that Sonar is a better option for you.
 
I wasn't aware of the issue which bothers you and it doesn't affect me but I think that you did the right thing bringing it into this discussion. Whichever question I can answer about what Sonar didn't do for me of did so for me I'll be happy to help. I'm not familiar w/ the X series though, but many of the issues I had w/ it seem to have prevailed w/ the newest versions.
 
Backwoods - Sonar 8.5 was the last version I used - Pro Audio 8-ish was the first.
 
 
Playback engine has been improved but still had a lot of catching up to do last time I checked (after X1) - for my workflow, anyway. 
Logic has the integrated sampling tools and sampler - that gives Logic the edge on every other guys FOR ME.
Comping - Logic has swipe comping. Sonar doesn't.
Varispeed.
Skip selection - the coolest thing when you try different arrangements. Reverse loop points to skip section. Do it right in front of playhead w/ playback engaged for extra points. Priceless. And smooth...
Importing Session Data - Crucial for me to be able to import only markers and a few tracks, or only track X and Y and their assigned buss.
Scalable GUI - one of the main reasons I switched, as trivial as it seems. I wouldn't want to deal w/ 40 tracks in Sonar on a laptop.
Intelligent management of aforementioned GUI. 
Record on selected track - not having to arm a track to record on it is a luxury. But you get used to it, and it's frickin' handy.
Input channels - I like to record through. Saying that it's useless is just like those people who used to say that monitoring through was useless. Sonar is one of the last ones not to have these by the way.
Routing options - Try routing a bus to a channel. Logic wins.
Navigate from one channel's plug-in GUI directly to another channel's plug-in - didn't work in Sonar back in the days...
Logic Compressor - I love that plug. And most of the bundled stuff.  But that's just me.
Industry standard - yes it does come into play. 
 
 
I can also tell you what Sonar had which I thought gave it the edge over Logic:
 
- MIDI Plug-ins (as of Logic X, no longer an issue).
- GUI - No longer an issue since Cakewalk "borrowed" Logic's GUI. Only, from a Windows angle.
- Ease of use and legacy - Out of the equation w/ Sonar X1, I had to start anew, anyway.
- Open-standard, alternative to Steinberg's proprietary tech - Cake bite the bullet and went ASIO and VST.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Guys i am working with sonar producer at present.. I will be back in 24 hrs or so to read and answer the posts in detail.. sorry about that..
 
I am a bit mortified on how buggy it is.. I mean i noticed over 6 months no update and some stuff really needs to be addressed.
 
The quick of it is that logic can do alot more although i far prefer sonar's automation.. but the midi is not a patch on logic so far, although the step sequencer rocks i must admit.
 
I would love to try the sonar midi effects but only the chord analyzer was installed even though they were ALL checked.. the others are just not there.. I have re downloaded the installer and checked all md5 hash and all is 100% uncorrupt, so i don't understand why i can't get the midi plugins installed. I am having such weird behaviour like th playhead simply disappearing after working in the piano roll for a while then going back to the arrange page.. I can click where i want to play from, everything plays back, but the playhead is simply *not there*. Crazy. And sometimes i change the length of a clip and undo it, and it goes through the undo but doesn't fix it! i need to manually go back and change the length of the clip again.
 
These are things that just don't happen in logic (or cubase) for that matter.. i have already crashed with it's own synth (dimension pro.. screen went grey and program hung) and already have 12 major bugs listed. Sorry to go OT but will definitely be posting in the main forums as i need some help here.
 
It's a wonderful program that could be so much more.. with improved midi, but more than anything, more stability. I could actually see myself using it if it was stable. I can't understand how something can be so unstable.. IMO so far, in my testing, it is the most unstable DAW i have ever used. Ever. The pro channel is flawless though. That is REALLY great. Part of me wishes i got the $49 studio update for this exercise rather than spending $99, cause as it stands i doubt i would switch to it, but, time will tell.
 
 PS Rain if this is what you mean by constant niggles, i already get it.
 

Rain - That scalable GUI would be a big hit for me since I'm a laptop user, and the MacBookPro will be a smaller screen than I'm used to. (they only come in 15" these days)
 
And thanks for your comments about programming for different tools. I'm relieved that you can assign key strokes for tools in Logic.  I like keeping my eye on the object I'm editing rather than having to reach for a tool which takes your eye "off the ball".
 
Do you use drum maps?  I'm using Superior and have a lot of drum pieces.  I do a lot of drum midi note editing and I arrange the drum pieces in a specific way to keep things organized.  Sonar's PRV with drum maps works well for me because it is so dense and each hit is represented by a triangle - not a note duration.  It's hard to assess Logic's lane sets from the limited screen shots in their manual.  Don't know if you can get the density of seeing so many at a time.  This may be one sore point with me.