I am going to bed now. I am tired. 
 
Have to watch the Simpsons and get some Tips from Ned Flanders 
 
hahaha! 
 
I crack myself up. I hate that guy. 

Mooch4056

But it doesn't stop me from loving The Lord or being thankful that He saved me from myself.

Bam! There you have it!
 
It's pretty alarming that someone would insist that God exists and saved them from their own inadequacy at taking decisions and handling life's problems in a rational and effective manner. 
 
If life's problems and your own self are too big issues for you, wouldn't it follow that you wouldn't be qualified to determine what's good and what's not? 
 
Someone so messed up that they can't even determine their own best interest and work it out is in no position of suggesting any solution - nor even to appreciate whether the solution he adopted is actually adequate. 
 
I wouldn't ask an heroin addict what's the best solution for fighting suicidal anxiety.
 
You have no other option but to believe that he exists because he saved your life, and that thought continues to save you. 
 
But what's even more alarming is that people would then erect their own shortcomings and inabilities as a standard among human.
 
As you mention, "God" saved you from yourself. You were your own problem. Many religiously-inclined people that I've spoke with had problems similar to yours though - and they also elevated their "defectiveness" as a general human flaw. They blamed it all on the original sin, assumed that we were all as crippled inside as they were, and from there on, God could forgive them what they could not forgive themselves.
 
Problem solved, another saved soul.
 
I don't have such a problem. I have my issues, my mistakes and all, but I work on them using my head and common sense. I deal with life's problem w/ reason. I try to be honest with myself - even when it means having opinions that are not advantageous for me (and that happens). I have empathy. And frankly, my actions don't drastically differ from those of a christian - except when it comes to religious rituals or trying to interfere with other peoples' rights In the Name of... 
 
Honestly, I don't need to be saved. I don't particularly deserve to be saved. I don't see the interest in being saved. This may sound pretentious but to me it's the opposite - to believe that everyone needs to be saved from themselves whether they admit it or not because you were messed up enough that you had to be saved from yourself? Man, that's really pushing it way out there...
 
From there on, there's effectively no limits to what one can do, even fantasize about how God used science. And it's easy to forget that it's entirely natural that we developed a particular affection for sights such as the night sky or leaves on a tree.
 
Just because you cannot believe that it's random does not mean it isn't. In fact, in view of your dependency on faith and supernatural causes, you would not be qualified to determine whether it can or cannot be random. In order for you to be safe, you MUST discard the possibility of randomness. You don't even have a choice.
 
But that shortcoming is not universal.

Rain. Why do you get to determine what I believe but I don't get to determine anything.

Your just not fair I am telling my mommy on youuuuuuuuuuuuuu!


(Eye roll)

For real I am going to bed.

Mooch4056
Rain. Why do you get to determine what I believe but I don't get to determine anything.

Your just not fair I am telling my mommy on youuuuuuuuuuuuuu!


(Eye roll)

For real I am going to bed.

I'm sure you do get to determine whatever it is that you want to - or at least interpret it so that it seems that you determined it. 
 
Truce, then. Have a good one. :)

I should have said pseudo science yoropal. You know -lots of food science, global warming propaganda stuff like that. Stuff where they can't make up their minds and make accurate predictions but pretend they are scientists.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNLOfKv_hI  Did you know the philosopher Feyeraband said science was a superstition. Have you read any philosophy of science what so ever?
 
Did you know a Catholic was the first to propose the big bang theory. Did you know the Catholic Chuirch has done a tremendous amount of scientific work through its history? Do you know anything about the Catholic Church? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaitre
 
Anyway, have at it guys, thanks for the interesting discussion.
 

yorolpal
And what, pray tell, does pain and suffering teach us?

That God is specialized in torture?


You're talking about a God who casted the whole humanity out of Eden, thousands of generations, because one of his perfect creatures could not resist one temptation. Not that he'd give her formal training before, or anything. He'd simply given orders, as usual, and proceeded to expose his candid creatures to Satan himself. The ultimate bad guy. Not just a human enemy - we're talking full-fledge fallen angel with all its mighty superpowers. That dude could even turn himself into a snake. A TALKING SNAKE! Freak!!!
 
I don't know if you can imagine - I live in the age of internet and, unlike Adam and Eve, I've seen my share of crazy sh!t, but a talking snake, that would certainly throw me off balance...
 
Anyway, so much for giving everyone a fair chance.
 
Obviously, that didn't turn out too well for the creatures. But instead of being pissed at his enemy Satan for corrupting his beloved creature, what did he do? You got it - he cast his creatures out to be further tortured and tormented by Satan, to whom God gave an all-access pass. He can do literally anything to corrupt us. We're his All You Can Eat Buffet. And if he manages to corrupt us, we're his for all eternity to burn and torture in the everlasting flames of hell, as agreed w/ God.
 
God lovingly watched over our progress, exterminating entire populations, flooding us, burning us, turning us to stone, ordering us to commit mass exterminations, to organize slavery, to chop the foreskin of our wee wee, making us sick, taking our health, making childbirth painful, and so on.
 
To be fair, he did give us a break once in a while - on our day off, we got to slaughter animals to appease him because he thought the smell of burning carcasses was pleasant.
 
But he still hadn't got over the fact that his candid creature had not overthrown Satan, so he got a human woman pregnant so that his son could die on the cross in order for him to forgive us. 
 
Simply forgiving us wouldn't have worked. More people needed to die. Lot more. Major lot more.
 
To be honest, things did not go as planned. Before Jesus was slaughtered and died an excruciatingly painful and humiliating death as a criminal under the eyes of his loving father, he'd revealed the basic plot:  "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." The Kingdom Come was a done deal, pretty much.
 
So now, technically, God is no longer mad at us... He's forgiven us 2000 years ago. Though it seems that he feels that he has to shove our nose into it a little more - just to make sure that we realize how awesome it was for him to finally forgive us stiff-necked ungrateful brats after gazillions had died.
 
As for the rest, well, it turns out that, like lots of things in the Bible, "this generation" didn't really mean "this generation" - it meant something else, something no one can quite be sure of. The only thing they know for sure is that it's coming soon. But at least we know we're safe. Except for sickness and earthquakes and tsunamis and hunger and cancer and aids and death and all those minor annoyances...
 
 

"Feyerabend became famous for his purportedly anarchistic view of science and his rejection of the existence of universal methodological rules..." 
 
Really? Of all the philosophers who've debated science and beliefs and knowledge, that's the one you picked? I mean, judging by how you repeatedly slammed me for not knowing science, I was expecting you to quote something pretty hardcore, like Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus or something like that. Teach me once and for all about the limits of science, y' know...(Or maybe I wasn't.)
 
Not even a founding father like Bertrand Russell, you sure? No? I'm guessing that someone who holds an anarchistic view of science and doesn't believe in methodology is indeed your best bet.
 
Oh well, I see your Feyeraband and I'll raise you one Nietzsche - who rejected philosophers, and had quite interesting views on science and faith - and the value of lies and plenty of crazy unorthodox things like that. And also some exquisite views on christianity.
 
 
Anyway, every atheist I know would agree that pseudo-science sucks. But to determine what is pseudo-science... 
 
Honestly, I don't see how someone who claims that there is any truth in any of the following: that a messiah was born out of immaculate conception, that he was the son of God, that he walked on water, cured the blinds, woke the dead, died and came back - I don't see how they think they can get away with calling Global Warming "pseudo-scientific" or complain about propaganda and keep a straight face.
 
 
Regardless, there may be people going completely Gong Ho over climatic change and there is effectively propaganda - people who've transferred the object of their need to believe in an absolute from religion to environment... But they aren't the majority. Anyway, the opposite is equally true - anti-global warming propaganda is also out there. 
 
But even if global warming was not as alarming as it stated, even if it turned out to be a minor bump - what would be so wrong in at least trying to preserve our environment and make the air we breathe and the water we drink a bit less toxic? 
 
I'm not saying that there is no manipulation whatsoever, but, come on! You are ready to omit all the blood that was spilled in the name of your God, centuries of persecution, mass extermination, willing to disregard the fact that the Catholic Church has been found guilty of effectively supporting and facilitating child abuse (because hiding and relocating known sex offenders is just that - moving the wolf to another fold) and you complain about the evil of pseudo-science?
 
Furthermore, it does not give Catholicism anymore credibility, whether there is or there isn't a global warming. Snakes don't talk, guys don't walk on water, dead stay dead, no matter what happens with global warming.
 
As for the work of Lemaître, it is indeed remarkable. Honestly, I don't know how he managed to make it work with strict creationism, but I'm guessing he was pretty "relaxed". People will make the most unlikely things coexist peacefully.
 
The fact that Lemaître was one of them says nothing in favour of Catholicism. It only indicate that Catholicism is an arbitrary and changeable understanding of the teachings of Christ and proves once again that christianity MUST be interpreted - arbitrarily.
 
As for the MANY other catholic men of science, well, I wouldn't be so sure that the scientific community did not receive torture and death from the Catholic church in an hundredfold...

BigBen
 
God created the world in 6 days, created it in perfect order, in perfect harmony, and established the order of the universe. The first 3 days of creation was the main things, and the next 3 were the "ornamentation" days (so to speak) in making everything beautiful. He made the earth the center of the universe and sent His only Son to atone for our countless sins to this center.

 
Not a very hospitable place for humans though, is it? Especially when we're so physically frail compared to just about all the other species living on it. 2/3 of it under water, all that desert, the frozen wildernesses..someone hadn't thought things through I reckon.

jamesg1213
 
Not a very hospitable place for humans though, is it? Especially when we're so physically frail compared to just about all the other species living on it. 2/3 of it under water, all that desert, the frozen wildernesses..someone hadn't thought things through I reckon.

I have thought about that as far back as I can recall.
I've always wondered about the place we're from; what was it like?
 
I got a kick out of Prometheus but it seem strange that they left
symbols to lead us to a planet that they used and not directions to
their "home" planet....but then when I think about "us" I think I know
why. I mean if I could get away I wouldn't leave a trail either.