2013/11/05 18:36:49
yorolpal
Dining tables make lousy conversationalists.
2013/11/05 18:41:06
The Maillard Reaction
 
"There are atheists who decide that beliefs, though they have their place, should yield to knowledge and facts."
 
 
IIRC, There are numerous examples of devoutly religious persons whom have maintained their beliefs while contributing to bodies of knowledge and an understanding of facts.
 
Darwin, Newton, Planck etc.
 
I'm not sure what that means but it seems like a good time to mention it.
 
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
2013/11/05 18:47:18
SteveStrummerUK
backwoods
No idea is fully corroborated, and any contrary evidence invalidates it. And yet average Joes who have read a couple of popular science books are pretty darn confident in their beliefs.



Consider me not your "average Joe", if you'd be so good.
 
I studied Genetics and Evolutionary Biology at University, and I've kept myself pretty much up to date with developments in both ever since.
 
And you are correct in your assumption that "No idea is fully corroborated", unless of course you delve into mathematics and some strains of pure logic. Science doesn't work like that at all. All we can hope for is to have a set of ideas that best fit the current evidence, nothing more. Newton's Laws of motion held up for nearly 200 years until Einstein amended them. And at the moment, the evidence available favours Einstein's ideas rather than Newton's. No doubt someone will come along in the future and point out the errors in his calculations.
 
This is how we progress. This is why I can type this message and you can read it a fraction of a second later, rather than having to wait for more traditional methods of conveying my words to you.
 
To spin your argument around, compare the modus operandi of the scientific method with the views of most believers, who somehow know with absolute certainty that their god exists, that he is the only god that exists, and that by paying him due deference and worshipping him correctly, they will continue to live on past the death of their physical body.
 
And all without even one miniscule speck of evidence from the past 2500 years to even hint that this is true.
 
I never understand why rational and intelligent human beings, who would normally seek out and act upon research and evidence before committing to some particular action, suspend all such rationality when the matter of religion is the subject in question.
 
You wouldn't buy a new car without looking under the hood, or checking the logbook would you? Or you wouldn't put medicine into your body that hadn't been put through countless lengthy and sophisticated clinical trials, would you?
 
Ironically, most Christians I know ascribe the same rational scrutiny to other religions as others (and atheists) apply to theirs. The only difference between an atheist and a believer is that the believer believes in just one more religion.
 
My own feelings on religion of all kinds is that they are now well past their use-by date. The spaces left in our knowledge for the 'god-of-the-gaps' to fill have become almost vanishingly small. The antiquated and often ludicrous laws that are stipulated in the holy scriptures are mostly anachronisms in the 21st century, and we are better off without many of them.
 
If we can safely dispense with the need for religious law and religious explanations for perfectly natural events, that only really leaves one thing to cling on to - the promise of eternal life. They say man is the only animal that knows he is going to die. And I reckon that man has always been frightened by that very prospect. If you can convince yourself that you're going somewhere else when you pop your clogs, I guess it makes the thought of death a little less daunting. My view is that many religions were begun on this very premise, and have subsequently been used to impose order on the ignorant unwashed ever since.
 
Back to the business of belief, I often hear the argument that, as an atheist, I do actually believe in something - in other words that I believe there is no god.
 
But to me that's not only ridiculous, it doesn't really make any sense. The word atheism itself means 'lack of belief (in god/gods/deities)', if anything. As mentioned previously, I might be incredibly naïve, but I don't fully understand how this can be confusing to people.
 
In a way, it's similar to demanding that an atheist proves there is no god, as if in some ways to justify his (non) beliefs. To me that's ridiculous; you can ask anyone to disprove anything you can think of or imagine, and of course, it can't be done. To the religious who think like that, I ask them to prove that fairies don't exist. Or that dragons don't exist. You can see where I'm coming from I hope.
 
Logic states that just because you cannot prove something doesn't exist, it doesn't automatically follow that it does exist.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
2013/11/05 18:52:11
SteveStrummerUK
mike_mccue
 
"There are atheists who decide that beliefs, though they have their place, should yield to knowledge and facts."
 
 
IIRC, There are numerous examples of devoutly religious persons whom have maintained their beliefs while contributing to bodies of knowledge and an understanding of facts.
 
Darwin, Newton, Planck etc.
 
I'm not sure what that means but it seems like a good time to mention it.
 

Well, to be honest with you Mike, it means absolutely nothing.
 
One is a complete non-sequitur of the other.
 
 
2013/11/05 19:05:58
yorolpal
Well, Straummy, ol pal...I don't know how things are over in Blighty, but over here, if polls are to be believed, 40% of 'Mercans think the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. So, really, we've got one heckuva hill to climb. But...I've got my hikin boots on.
2013/11/05 19:07:39
The Maillard Reaction
"I never understand why rational and intelligent human beings, who would normally seek out and act upon research and evidence before committing to some particular action, suspend all such rationality when the matter of religion is the subject in question."
 
It probably has something to do with evolutionary biology.
 
I am still trying to figure out why my dog is willing to come inside each night when he obviously has so much fun running the neighborhood.
 
 
 
 
"Or you wouldn't put medicine into your body that hadn't been put through countless lengthy and sophisticated clinical trials, would you?"
 
Classic! There is no way for most individuals to prove to them selves that any medicine they have been offered has been tested or is even what the label purports it to be. This is a classic example where the recipients have to more or less believe that someone else has access to the proof and verification.
 
 
"I often hear the argument that, as an atheist, I do actually believe in something - in other words that I believe there is no god.... In a way, it's similar to demanding that an atheist proves there is no god,"
 
That is what it is. It is easy to see how atheism is merely another form of belief.
 
 
 
 
It is a wonder to me that some people have evolved to find belief so distasteful. :-)
 
best regards,
mike
2013/11/05 19:08:45
The Maillard Reaction
SteveStrummerUK
mike_mccue
 
"There are atheists who decide that beliefs, though they have their place, should yield to knowledge and facts."
 
 
IIRC, There are numerous examples of devoutly religious persons whom have maintained their beliefs while contributing to bodies of knowledge and an understanding of facts.
 
Darwin, Newton, Planck etc.
 
I'm not sure what that means but it seems like a good time to mention it.
 

Well, to be honest with you Mike, it means absolutely nothing.
 
One is a complete non-sequitur of the other.
 
 




 
 
I love it when we can agree on something!
 
It makes me smile.
 
best regards,
mike
2013/11/05 19:17:14
SteveStrummerUK
backwoods
Maybe it would be heaven on earth if all religion was banned like they tried in Cambodia that time.
 



Are you seriously trying to suggest that the people of Cambodia under the rule of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge suffered so greatly because he banned religion? I'm not sure exactly why he chose to ban religion, but history proves that most societies that actively ban religion do so because they see them (or more accurately their ability to co-ordinate their adherents) as some kind of threat to their power.
 
Furthermore, I'd be almost certain that he didn't murder and torture the thousands of people that suffered at his hands (religious or not) in the name of atheism, if that's what you're trying to imply.
 
The real irony being that most dictators and totalitarian governments go to great lengths to demand the same levels of adherence to their ideology and intolerance of outsiders as the gods they forbid their citizens from openly worshipping do.
 
And once again, I'd like to slightly turn your argument back on you with regard to Cambodia, and ask where was your god while the Khmer Rouge were slaughtering his believers in the killing fields? Don't tell me, I think I know the answer to that one - 'he works in mysterious ways' doesn't he? So mysterious and inconsp1cuous that one might deduce he wasn't really there, maybe?
2013/11/05 19:49:02
timidi
Nice blog Mooch. Glad you're involved and speaking out. Just, I couldn't watch it with the audio (lies) going on.
Why do you have all that noise when you're talking? I get it. Turn it off and talk.
I didn't read this thread so maybe I'm missing something.
 
And now, wait a minute, Is this allowed here. Aren't you breaking the law or something......?.............
2013/11/05 19:57:32
backwoods
Steve, yeah they did not do it in the name of atheism just like "virgin' teachers don't do their deeds in the name of religion. Pretty basic I would have thought.
 
Logic states that just because you cannot prove something doesn't exist, it doesn't automatically follow that it doesn't exist.  Back to school for you Strummy. 
 
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