As always Jeff an eloquent and interesting post, thank you
 

I just had a mini-epiphany from Jeffs 'It is only up to 4 tones per note but you can still make some incredible sounding textures'
 
Just because you have 30 layers doesn't mean you should use them.
 
I did a double take on my post #6 about live sets, of course you should start with just a single tone or a live set and expand from there if needed.
 
Registrations are niche, that's because they are tailored to a specific performance, that's why there are so few registrations compared to live sets, live sets are the building blocks of a performance and sometimes a performance in their own right.
 

Jeff Evans ...
I don't believe any synthesiser is limiting. It is interesting how there can be several points of view on something. They are limitless rather than limiting. Presets are a great starting point to get to know the sonic capabilities of the instrument. And also to inspire. They certainly do that for me. Reverse engineering of a preset synth patch enables you to learn the basic principles of synthesis. Once you have some basic understanding of the concept of sound building then you can easily learn what the original programmer did to create that sound.
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There is a slight issue here, that no one wants to discuss. You all spend time telling us to study and learn and spend time on the instrument and such, but then you skip 3 pages ... and tell your student to go fuch himself!
 
I love the stuff on Youcrap and even the comments here, but what teaches you is not just a patch ... but how do you go from this ONE SOUND, to all of a sudden a MASSIVE sound, and more choices ... and this is the frustrating part of it all, that I'm asking help for.
 
It seems like all you and others know is every fuching patch in the world and internet, but when it comes to answering a simple question and teaching a child ... it's impossible, and you can't, don't have the time, and won't do it!
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You can't learn music, or in this case a synth, by just using a patch, and have no idea what the rest does and such ... why the fuch do you not get a workstation instead?
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Jeff Evans
Editing factory patches is great because you start with something half way there and end up with something that is fully there and very original.
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All the patches and what not that Arturia offers are not for beginners. I have never been able, for example to "de-construct" a single one of those patches to see "where it came from!", so to speak!
 
But again, no one knows anything and do not want to make a couple of dollars teaching an idiot to be more idiotic! The only teaching anyone can do with synthesizers these days is literally gone ... no one plays them!!!!! Everyone uses a workstation, because no one understands a synthesizer or is interested in spending time on it, like they would a guitar or drums! The synthesizer is no longer an instrument ... it's some stupid crap on the side. If you want a string sound, you don't use a synth ... you use a VST! There you have it ... the extent of the knowledge of the synthesizer!
 
And someone using something that "free form" on stage is insane. Even Edgar Froese uses about 4 to 5 workstations now, meaning that there is no free form stuff as much anymore, as the whole setup is just way too complicated, and no one knows anything about it. Even Edgar doesn't like to talk about it with anyone, and that is the reason why they have their own folks setting things up ... it's just way out there in the setup!
 
Sadly, that is what is going to kill this instrument.

Shambler
3 partials per tone
 
1 tone percussion
4 tones lower
4 tones upper
1 tone solo
 
3*(1+4+4+1)=30 layers
..still short of the Kurz.
 
Now if Kurzweil had a decent GUI more people would realise what a great synth it is.

Since the JV there had been up to 4 tones per patch in a Roland board and of course up to 16 patches per performance/studio set.. The Fantom G added live sets into the equation.. (so that you could have seamless live set switching) and that's 8 patches per live set, each of course with its own keyboard range etc...so 32 discrete elements.
 
Roland really didn't help themselves with the terminology in the JP80...but there is no denying the fundamental VA part is pretty good.
 
and a+1000 on the kurz.. they put themselves out of contention for me...I always rated Roland UI the best of the bunch

@moshkai ..
 
there is some art but mostly knowledge and practice in deconstructing a patch.. suggest welchs synthesizer cookbook....http://www.amazon.com/Welshs-Synthesizer-Cookbook-Programming-Universal/dp/B000ERHA4S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384105350&sr=8-1&keywords=welch+synth

The word synthesis is quite broad. It could mean a powerful workstation or the DX7 or of course back to basics with an analog modular synth.
 
That is how I learned, starting with the analog modular. I had a Korg setup in the early 80's. Roland wrote some great books on basic synthesis as well. I have found that the knowledge gained right back at the starting point eg analog synthesis and building a sound from nothing is still very helpful and relevant today even with modern workstations. There are some things that still translate.
 
A good basic synthesis course would be a good thing to do. There have been some great tutorials written on it in various magazines over the years too. And the good news is there are plenty of VST's out there to learn and practice on. I don't think basic analog synth concepts will ever go away and people are still playing and buying them. I have just bought the Oberheim OBX or OPX Pro II from Sonic Projects. A very basic but incredible sounding instrument. It is something like that that one's basic synth programming knowledge can really come into its own.
 
The interesting thing is that one can use a workstation and still create a patch the same way as you can on an analog modular and get a very similar result. Reverse engineering can still be helpful but I agree it might be harder in the case of an analog modular compared to say a workstation. But the basic principles still apply. You can still reverse engineer an analogue sound too. See what osc waveforms were used, how they are tuned, filter choices and settings, Volume and Filter ADSR settings and of course modulations from the LFO.
 
I am a very experienced teacher of synthesis actually and have been doing it since the 70's. I started teaching teenagers the basic principles of synthesis when the first modular systems were being sold. I do have the time and can teach it well and explain any aspect of it. But it is probably something that is best handled in a one on one situation.  It helps when you have the teacher and the synthesiser in the same room. You need to spend time playing around with synthesisers too and experiment. After all that is what they are designed for. It can all be learned and it is not hard either. It also helps if you have a positive attitute toward learning.

Jeff Evans
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 That is how I learned, starting with the analog modular. I had a Korg setup in the early 80's. Roland wrote some great books on basic synthesis as well. I have found that the knowledge gained right back at the starting point eg analog synthesis and building a sound from nothing is still very helpful and relevant today even with modern workstations. There are some things that still translate.
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And this is a lost art. You can see it in today's music and when you look at Computer Music and other periodicals out there.
 
They have lost the ability, and concept, of what the beginning is/was, and can only do things off their own tools, that skip half the knowledge that you are supposed to know or learn! Annoying to say the least.
 

Jeff Evans
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A good basic synthesis course would be a good thing to do. There have been some great tutorials written on it in various magazines over the years too.
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Again, most of these are cut off, and not complete. You show me one example of taking one single note, and one single setting in any synthesizer, and let's take this to the umpteenth degree, and make it sound professional (so to speak!) ... sort of watch this one note become a Poink Flint sound!
 
Then you go to a different synthesizer, and try the same thing, and you get nothing.
 
VST's are like Cliff Notes. They are fun and fun and fun, no question, but you only know the sound, not the musical/aesthetical aspect of it, and that is the part that teaches you about the synthesizer. Not using the "sound" or "patch", which becomes nothing but a matter of taste!
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Jeff Evans
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But it is probably something that is best handled in a one on one situation.  It helps when you have the teacher and the synthesiser in the same room. You need to spend time playing around with synthesisers too and experiment.

 
Agreed.
 
But around Portland, you don't have keyboard players. You only got top ten riff players! It's been frustrating to say the least, and I have just about exhausted the efforts. Even Craig, who might not be up to snuff on everything would be great help, but he's not interested, and I don't have enough doll/whores to swindle him with!
 
That would likely be Photoshop, by the way!

Trust me ... it's not been fun, though I have gotten a few things done.