nah..i disagree..
 
midi isn't going anywhere... if you took midi away overnight the entire music industry would crash. think about it.. no soft synths, no arpeggiators, .. that's no modern music at all... even if you think that all modern music is loops...how do you think they are created?.. softsynths and samplers driven by midi
 
Without midi its back to Tascam and a guitar...
 
wait.. back to Tascam and a guitar?.. oops.. forward to Tascam professional software and a guitar?..
 
 
 
 

Every year NAMM reports that sales of instruments that don't rely on MIDI far out paces sales of instruments that do.
 
Don't get me wrong... I've already explained that I like MIDI and want to use it more than I do... but if MIDI disappeared tomorrow there would still be lots and lots of people making music on all that other stuff.
 
all the best,
mike

I've been known to use my V-Drums to enter MIDI data just to make sure I get the irregular tempo I'm looking for.  LOL.

mike_mccue
 
I get the impression that the latest Cubase version has some enhanced tools for this. I also recall that in the past that our forum user dmbaer mentioned he was developing a free standing tool for this purpose.

I'm just learning Cubase and am nowhere close to expert level, but I don't believe Cubase has a huge lead on SONAR.  The tempo editor (tempo view) is a bit more user friendly and more consistent with other Cubase editors, and Cubase has a very nice feature where you can disable the tempo map and play back at whatever fixed tempo you wish (great for practice or for adding parts too difficult to play in real time).  But it does not have anything (that I've discovered anyway) that assists in mapping a conductor click track to a tempo map that's more advanced than anything in SONAR, which is Fit to Improv.
 
The software I wrote can be read about and obtained here:
 
    http://soundbyte.arsov.net/Wordpress/2013/05/08/tempo-thelastdawfrontier/
 
We're in the process of moving to a better host for the magazine, so the link may change in a few days.  I'll try to remember to update it when that happens.

My first reaction to your article:
 
"what a great title"
 
when I used a similar phrase in post #4 I was feeling it all by myself.
 
:-)
 
 

mike_mccue
My first reaction to your article:
 
"what a great title"
 
when I used a similar phrase in post #4 I was feeling it all by myself.
 
:-)
 
 

I think you were getting that impression because I work that part outside of Sonar in order to gain more flexibility between the 3 different and distinctly seperate time based aspects of audio, midi and the project tempo, so I don't get the same problem, but not because I don't understand what you are trying to achieve but because I'm no longer familiar with the problems you seem to be having.
 
Dmbaer's solution is an excellent one will which will give you what you are after as do the solutions I'm using already within Sonar.  It's not that you are on your own as much as some of us have developed methodologies to deal with this aspect already that still seems to be limiting you.
 
You are not being hospitable to people that want to play on a grid as you put it, you are being insulting to those that are able to make that grid flexible enough for it not to be a limiting factor.  If you can sync audio to video then there are certainly no bars to syncing midi to audio these days however sloppy the timing of either or even both.

dmbaer

mike_mccue
 
I get the impression that the latest Cubase version has some enhanced tools for this. I also recall that in the past that our forum user dmbaer mentioned he was developing a free standing tool for this purpose.

I'm just learning Cubase and am nowhere close to expert level, but I don't believe Cubase has a huge lead on SONAR.  The tempo editor (tempo view) is a bit more user friendly and more consistent with other Cubase editors, and Cubase has a very nice feature where you can disable the tempo map and play back at whatever fixed tempo you wish (great for practice or for adding parts too difficult to play in real time).  But it does not have anything (that I've discovered anyway) that assists in mapping a conductor click track to a tempo map that's more advanced than anything in SONAR, which is Fit to Improv.
 
The software I wrote can be read about and obtained here:
 
    http://soundbyte.arsov.net/Wordpress/2013/05/08/tempo-thelastdawfrontier/
 
We're in the process of moving to a better host for the magazine, so the link may change in a few days.  I'll try to remember to update it when that happens.

Thanks for that.
 
It's a beautifully elegant solution that will work anywhere.

Jonbouy

mike_mccue
My first reaction to your article:
 
"what a great title"
 
when I used a similar phrase in post #4 I was feeling it all by myself.
 
:-)
 
 

I think you were getting that impression because I work that part outside of Sonar in order to gain more flexibility between the 3 different and distinctly seperate time based aspects of audio, midi and the project tempo, so I don't get the same problem, but not because I don't understand what you are trying to achieve but because I'm no longer familiar with the problems you seem to be having.
 
Dmbaer's solution is an excellent one will which will give you what you are after as do the solutions I'm using already within Sonar.  It's not that you are on your own as much as some of us have developed methodologies to deal with this aspect already that still seems to be limiting you.
 
You are not being hospitable to people that want to play on a grid as you put it, you are being insulting to those that are able to make that grid flexible enough for it not to be a limiting factor.  If you can sync audio to video then there are certainly no bars to syncing midi to audio these days however sloppy the timing of either or even both.

OK, I read this about 5 times and I decided to give up trying to understand why you would take offense and fire away with that sort of response. For one thing you seem to assume that my thoughts include some sort of impression of you... which they don't. For another thing I can't understand much of what you are trying to convey after that until you get to the part where you accuse me of being insulting to someone who evidently seems to feel he is advanced enough to warrant being insulted by those who don't know they are doing so.
 
:-(
 
To be clear the post you have quoted was an expression of delight that someone such as David seems to hope for the same sort of built in tools as I hope for.
 
That post is not a condemnation of anyone who has other methods of getting the same results but you have acted as if you have decided to imagine that it is.
 
You scare me... because you have once again left me with a choice of turning the other cheek or providing you with an argument as you seem to desire. 
 
 
 
 
 
I'd sure like to have better tools built right in to the DAW and I'd really enjoy some ability to smooth out the tempo map so as to acknowledge that the "scratch" track can actually have examples of playing before or behind the beat.
 
Fit to Improv works ok if you have the time sig worked out in advance until you start to try to smooth out the tempo mapping by going in a second time to work on the details.
 
I look forward to trying out Davids new tool.
 
best regards,
mike
 
 

mike_mccue
I want better MIDI tempo mapping tools. It seems like the final frontier for DAW.
 
Some days I use my all powerful DAW like it's a time code tape deck because mapping the tempo to free play reveals the many ways you can end up with "tempo out of bounds" dialogs.
 
Other days I use my all powerful DAW like it is a doctor rhythm drum machine circa 1983.
 
I'd really enjoy getting to easily place a MBT grid on a free play performance with out all the hassles I associate with the attempts I have made for the past 20 years. Getting to do that without having to be a ninja that can outsmart the DAW would really be a treat.
 
That way I could feel like I am not missing out on the potential of DAW while I am being hospitable to people who don't play their music on a grid.
 
best regards,
mike

I apologize Mike I got the emboldened part completely the wrong way round.  I took it as a sneer to those that quantize to a grid when in fact you are seeking to accommodate those that have difficulty in keeping strict mechanical time.
 
I was completely wrong having read it back.
 
I hope I can correct my mistake as quickly as a midi clip...

I found this interesting:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFIZc7IMzyA
 
It is a panel discussion about Midi at the NAMM 2013 show and it is great to see those heavyweights up there such as Dave Smith and Tom Oberheim etc. Very interesting.
 
It shows that even the original midi spec was incredibly well designed and still can function so well even today. I don't think there will ever be a revision of the Midi Spec but I don't think it is going away anytime soon. It certainly forms the basis even today of a big part of my setup and it just works so incredibly well. Modern instruments (such as Kurzweil PC3K) while adding USB ports and things are also still featuring Midi connections too.
 
Mike I find your interest in tempo mapping also interesting and I am also interested in it too. I recorded some amazing world musicians playing live back in the mid 90's and I still have the sessions today. All without a click of course. And although the tempos sound very regular etc they are mapping all over the place for sure. I did add a lot of midi tracks to the music after tempo mapping everything very painfully using Cubase at the time. It just has a wonderful feel and groove and nothing like grid based grooves either. No comparison actually so I am keen to get into this more too.
 
I find myself that when I play drums I can play very well to the click but when I lay down grooves without it they just seem to jump or groove in a way that does not happen on the grid. It is the reason why live music is so good.
 
I want audio tracks to be analysed and generate tempo maps that would be the ideal for me. Just out of interest and it may be a rumour but Studio One may be doing something very serious in this area in their next upgrade. (possibly V3)  If they do then they will lead the pack for sure. We will have to wait and see. And knowing them it will be done properly and it will work!