The tutorial video says that the "traditional" bar meter shows RMS and Peak.
 
At first I assumed it would show the RMS and the PPM of the same signal at the same test point, but now it seems as if it is tracking the RMS of the input and the PPM of the output.
 
Does that seem like what is going on?
 
Thanks.
 
best regards,
mike
 
 

Both readings in the main meters are output levels. Input peak levels are displayed in the scrolling graphical display. AFAIK there is no option to see input RMS. There wouldn't be much point in monitoring input RMS levels, would there? 

My question is based on the basic notion that RMS is usually -3dBFS below the peak of the same material, where as the meters on my ProL seem to have a pronounced difference in level, approximately 14dBFS in the material I am watching in the tutorial.
 
The RMS meters seem to be tracking the little white RMS line which seem a few dB lower than the peaks on the Input spectrum meter levels and the PPM meters seem to be tracking the Output spectrum meter.
 
As I say, I was expecting the bar meter to track the very same thing... I expected the PPM to be apprx 3dB hotter than the RMS.
 
Perhaps the RMS is averaged out over a much longer time than I am thinking?
 
In the SONAR gui it seems like swapping from RMS to PPM metering nets the 3dB change. 
 
That's why I am asking the question?
 
 
best regards,
mike

See what I mean?
 

I'm not an expert or anything, but RMS can vary a lot depending on compression and limiting. I have span, T-racks metering and Pro-L and they are usually very close to the same measurements. My songs are all over the place -8 to -14 RMS but sound pretty close to the ear. The dynamic range effects RMS.

Anytime some body says RMS in the context of audio levels, there is an unspoken variable; Time duration of the range of sampling.
 
I think if anyone will take a quick look at that screen shoot and then consider the specifics of my question that, at the very least, the nature of the question will make some sense.
 
I posed the question because I had the same reaction as Bitflipper; "why would anyone want to do that?"
 
I'm just trying to figure out what's going on, so I'm open to correction or confirmation.
 
Why is the little white RMS line hovering down near the input peaks? The little white line seems to be tracking the inputs peaks right where I would anticipate if I was thinking of the RMS equivalent.
 
It looks to me like the bar meter RMS read out is tracking the little white RMS line.
 
Which suggest to me that the bar meter RMS readout is tracking the input.
 
 
It seems weird.
 
I've only owned my license long enough to get curious about the tutorials. I honestly thought everyone would know about this and just confirm that this is the way it is.
 
Can someone go look at their instance and offer a more considered opinion after observing the details I am pointing out?
 
Thanks!!!
 
 
all the best,
mike
 
 

Anytime some body says RMS in the context of audio levels, there is an unspoken variable; Time duration of the range of sampling.

 
This is one aspect in which Pro-L's metering does diverge from common convention: the RMS window is much longer (2 seconds!) than you're used to seeing (SONAR's meters have a 50ms window by default). This is the way to go for mastering, where you're not interested in moment-to-moment RMS values. I've always set up SPAN for a 1- or 2-second window for mastering, so the Pro-L meters looked "right" to me from the get-go.
 
Forget about the 3db expectation. The actual ratio (crest factor) depends on the amount of compression, not just from the limiter itself but what's preceded it in the mix. 3db would actually be overcompressed in my book (although it depends on style and genre). I like to see around 12db.
 
I'd also suggest using Pro-L's meters in K-14 mode, just because it's more useful for mastering. All you have to do is make sure the meters hover around the 0db mark and don't turn red, or only go red briefly, and you'll get consistent results with minimal effort.

Thanks Bit,
 Is the 2 seconds documented somewhere? I must admit, I installed my stuff and started using it then watched some videos to learn about the extra built in features. I haven't read any docs yet. :-)
 
 I have observed that the RMS meter on Elephant seems to be averaged across the entire track... at the end of the song it takes a long time for the silence to impact the "average" level.
 
 With ProG where the RMS level is so much lower than the peaks I would have guessed that the time period would be even longer than 2 seconds.
 
 I had, I suppose, mistakenly assumed the RMS was not meant to serve as "averaged" the way that Elephant's read out works because the value seemed to refresh more frequently. I jumped to the conclusion that it was meant to seem nearly instantaneous.
 
 I guess it's another meter ballistic that I'll want to learn to get to know. :-)
 
 Sort of like when mixing and matching mechanical VU metering with electronic PPM... after a while you get a feel for how they relate.
 
 best regards,
mike
 
 
 
 

Some thoughts:
 
1. The 3dB difference between peak and RMS is for a sine wave, using the mathematical definition of RMS (vs. what I'll call the "analog audio convention" definition). For a square wave there should be no difference between the two. For other waveforms the difference could be more significant.
 
2. The duration of the RMS calculation becomes less significant as it increases, especially once it's beyond a very short duration.
 
3. The RMS value just may not be expressed as dBFS, but something else. 
 
My advice is to just run a square wave and a sine wave through it to establish exactly what it's telling you and proceed accordingly. 

Thanks Drew,
 I should have thought of 1 right off the start.
 
 2 seems easy to understand once someone states it as clearly as you just did.
 
 The advice seems perfect for nut like me. :-)
 
best,
mike