2015/02/20 07:31:55
GregGraves
Did not know about this gem until I noticed reference to same in another string this forum.  Having read the various papers now, and having installed Martin Zuther's freeware K-meter plugin, I'm coming up with questions on what this all might really mean.  First off, randomly sampling a few recent CDs indicates pretty clearly nobody is paying any attention to this, at least not yet I guess ... but it does seem a good idea.  If I understood it.  The user's manual for Slate Digital's FG-X goes on about keeping RMS levels around -10, and that is what I've been shooting for in my recent CD release.  However, it seems this K-14 "standard" is shooting for -14 RMS.
 
I have a SPL meter and can calibrate my monitors to 85db pink noise at 0 db on the K-14 meter.  However, I can compress the living crap out of a mix, just go totally square wave with it, and by adjusting the gain, get it to sit at 0 db on the K-14 meter.  I don't think that was the intention, but it raises some issues insofar as the various compression that has been used (vocals and bass always get compressed) upstream of the Master Bus.  Is the objective to mix so the meter shows 0 rms?  Or mix so you you are bouncing into the +14 red range?  Put another way, is the objective to mix so you retain a 14 db dynamic range?
 
I totally get the value of calibrating your monitors to 85db to avoid the "louder is always better" trap.  In fact, I used to keep an SPL meter on the mixing desk back when recording meant dumping to an Otari 24-track.  Since Sonar's meters are all set up so 0db is where you run out of 1's and 0's, isn't the K-14 meter the same as setting Sonar's meter to read RMS+peak and keeping the RMS of the final mix to -14?  Is that what this standard is shooting for?  Isn't that the same thing?
 
To again rephrase, is the K-14 standard shooting for -14 average RMS with 14db dynamic range?  Seems rather impossible to achieve, thus my feeling I am not understanding, and thus this post.
2015/02/20 10:24:46
batsbrew
2015/02/20 11:44:55
bitflipper
As you've observed, K-14 alone isn't the answer to the loudness wars. It's easy to create a K-14 master that's still a brick. The idea is to leave enough headroom to allow peaks to extend well above average RMS.  No metering solution is going to assure that such peaks exist, only to let you know when you're discouraging them.
 
The real benefit of K-metering is to promote consistency. It's based on long-standing standards for film exhibition. If a movie theater's sound system is properly calibrated, a given movie will be reasonably close to the same subjective volume in every theater it's shown in. Bob Katz's idea was to apply that same level of consistency to music production, where no such standards had existed prior to Bob's initiative. (Unless you count "as loud as possible" as a standard.)
 
From a DIY masterer's perspective, it's important that you listen to your mixes at a consistent volume. That's why you do the 85 dB calibration. It's not necessary to actually listen at 85 dB, which most people find too loud. The idea is to make your monitoring system a consistent reference, the one constant that you can rely on among all the other variables.
 
When you set your average level to -14 dB, you're adjusting perceived volume so that mix A at K-14 should sound about as loud as mix B at K-14. (I say "about" because there are other factors besides average RMS that affect volume.)
 
My personal *rough* rules-of-thumb to determine when I'm in the ballpark (>for my own style<) are as follows:
- the bulk of the song hovers around 0 dB (K-14)
- quiet parts don't go much below -4 dB (K-14)
- loud parts don't go much above +4 dB (K-14)
- highest peaks hit -1 dB (absolute scale)
- average peaks are at least -3 dB (absolute scale)
- master limiter is only kicking in occasionally, and maximum gain reduction is < 6 dB
 
This is going to result in an RMS dynamic range of at least 8 dB and a peak-to-RMS ratio of at least 14 dB. These parameters have been tailored to my own style, and would probably be too wide for less-dynamic genres such as EDM, hip-hop or even most contemporary pop. What you have to do is pick your best-sounding masters and analyze them to see how you got there.
 
2015/02/20 14:57:21
Jeff Evans
I use the K system through the production phase and often work at K -14.  I also work at K-20 at times too when I want to create a sound that has slightly nicer transients.
 
In mastering I do it a little differently.  Most clients I have worked for would not accept a K-14 master. They would complain it is not loud enough compared to other things.  I would love K -14 masters.
 
Analysing is good and a perfect sounding CD with lots of transient punch and being loud is Steely Dan's 'Two Against Nature'.  It is mastered nicely to around the K-10 mark.  Dynamic range of around 10 db so its snappy with punch and loud at the same time.
 
When mastering you don't push +4db over a  K -14 ref level.  You recalibrate the system to K-10 instead.  Then you are shooting for 0 dB VU again.  And adjust your SPL level to be back to 85 dB SPL. 
 
A K-14 sine wave tone should put the VU meter at 0 dB VU.  -14 dB Pink noise will just hit -1 dB on the VU meter.  Pink noise at 85 db SPL sounds louder compared to music at the same level. 83 - 85 dB SPL I find is good in the room. I like it anyway. (make sure you are C Weighting, include the bass energy) I like to monitor at 95 and also 105 dB SPL for little stints too.  Lower levels (70 dB SPL)  are good through a small mono speaker for mix checking.
 
In production I work using K system and metering mainly with VU (peak as well too)  In mastering I involve Loudness meters and the Dynamic Range meter too.  I find Loudness and the K system level I have chosen are very closely related.
 
You are allowed to shift your K system reference levels.  There are the main 3 of course. (-20, -14, -12)
Actually K-12 being one of the standards for broadcasting.  I have introduced some extra mastering levels for the way I work.  I have added in K-10 and even K-8 for the Hip Hop guys who like it louder. And you are doing all of this at 85 db SPL adjusting accordingly as you shift your ref levels.
 
Going from K-14 (Your mix) to K-10 (master) is easy.  You can score 1 or 2 db from each of the three mastering stages. The EQ, the compression and the final limiter.  Everything sounds clean if it is only adding 1 to 2 dB of rms gain.  Going from K-20 to a K-8 master will make everything work much harder in mastering.  Big jump in rms level now. eg 12 dB as opposed to the previous 4 dB from K-14 to K-10.
2015/02/20 15:06:23
dmbaer
GregGraves
I have a SPL meter and can calibrate my monitors to 85db pink noise at 0 db on the K-14 meter.



That's probably too loud unless you're working in a large commercial studio space.  There was an excellent article on this subject last year in Sound on Sound magazine.  You can see it here:
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may14/articles/reference-monitoring.htm
2015/02/20 15:35:51
batsbrew
GOOD ARTICLE.
2015/02/22 00:44:28
Grem
Thanks for the link David. That was a good article.
2015/02/22 11:53:45
WallyG
dmbaer
GregGraves
I have a SPL meter and can calibrate my monitors to 85db pink noise at 0 db on the K-14 meter.



That's probably too loud unless you're working in a large commercial studio space.  There was an excellent article on this subject last year in Sound on Sound magazine.  You can see it here:
 
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may14/articles/reference-monitoring.htm




For my music room, I use 76 dB and that seems to work well for me.
 
Walt
2015/02/22 13:25:31
GregGraves
For me too it is 76 db per the SOS article (bottom of page), and even that is WAY LOUD.
 
I am using the K-12 meters and eyeballing the average RMS to sit on zero.  That winds up giving me 10.5 db of dynamics (?) on the particular song I am finalizing.  Looking at the resulting 44.1 16bit waveform doesn't really look like other waves that are coming out of big name studios.  My master comes out with mean RMS of 16 with a peak of 1.5, but for example a jazz CD by Hardcastle comes out mean RMS 13 peak of 0.  Other examples are even more squared.
 
Am I shooting myself in the competitive-face trying to be a Katz-ian? 
2015/02/22 14:50:41
Jeff Evans
Greg a question.  Are we talking Pre mastered mix?  That should be sitting around -12 dB FS rms if you have been working at K -12.  Peaks close to -2 to -3 dB with the rare one coming a little higher.
 
What do mean by your master comes out at mean rms of 16 with peaks at 1.5.  Mastering should lift the rms levels of your pre mastered mix.  If you go in at K-12 then you should come out at some louder rms level such as K-10.  Peaks should all be sitting mainly at your output level threshold of your limiter.  I ususlly set this to some value below 0 dB FS.  It stops people's converters from clipping.  With the loud Hip hop clients I have I push that all the way to -0.1 dB FS.  With more normal music I drop this again either to -0.5 or -1 dB FS.  It prevents issues with mp3 conversion too.
 
A lot of Jazz is still mastered a little.  They still lift the rms level up to around K-12 to K-10 and clip the tops off neatly around -0.5dB FS or so.  Depends on the Jazz artist to some extent too.
 
Now after mastering this normally looks and sounds a little different to a premastered mix.  With a K-12 premaster I would take that to around K-10.  So you recal the system to K-10.  Your mix will be 2 dB shy of K-10 now.  (eg hitting -2dB on the VU meter)  It is easy to add 2dB or rms gain.  Mastering wise I set the top clip point to say -0.5 dB FS.  After going for a K-10 mastered level the waveform should still look reasonably dynamic with clipped top sections in parts.
 
I find a K-12 master yields about 11 on the DR meter.  A Dynamic Range meter is a more accurate way of measuring the dynamics of your master.  After mastering to K-10 my DR meter usually shows around 9 to 9.5.
 
The mastering chain should be your overall EQ followed by a nice transparent compressor for a bit of mix glue then the limiter to raise the rms level and clip the tops pff neatly after doing that.  PSP Xenon is my fave limiter for a lot of work.  It is outstanding.  I can smash masters right up K-7 or K-6 even and Xenon can still sound clean and not fall apart.  I am not into that so much now though.. The trend is moving away from it a bit I think (hope!!)
 
 
12
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account