I have a growing collection of effects that can do interesting things with MIDI data, including note-on events.  But there seems to be no way to route MIDI to effects in Sonar in a straightforward manner (if it can be done at all).  I discovered with considerable envy that Cubase provides up to four aux. sends from MIDI tracks that can be used this way (they are also good for driving multiple synths from a single MIDI track, if I'm reading my sources of information correctly).
 
I'm wondering if this is a common feature among DAWs or if it's a Cubase specialty.  If it's commonly found, then maybe we Sonar users can hold out some hope of seeing this feature at some point.
 
If you have experience with non-Sonar DAWs, please chime in.

SONAR does do the same thing, just a different way. One that offers some advantages over the aux send model.

When you clone a MIDI track and check the "link to original" option, you're effectively creating an alternate routing for the MIDI data. It's still the original data, but now you can send it somewhere else just like you can with an aux send.

I believe this scheme is better. You're not limited to 4 sends. You can have, AFAIK, an unlimited number. And because you have a whole dedicated track for it, you can also insert effects, specify banks and patches, transpose, adjust timing and change the MIDI channel assignment. I don't know how much of that Cubase lets you do.

bitflipper


SONAR does do the same thing, just a different way. One that offers some advantages over the aux send model.

When you clone a MIDI track and check the "link to original" option, you're effectively creating an alternate routing for the MIDI data. It's still the original data, but now you can send it somewhere else just like you can with an aux send.

I believe this scheme is better. You're not limited to 4 sends. You can have, AFAIK, an unlimited number. And because you have a whole dedicated track for it, you can also insert effects, specify banks and patches, transpose, adjust timing and change the MIDI channel assignment. I don't know how much of that Cubase lets you do.

Yes, this solution works fine if all you want to do is to stack synths.  But I'm more interested in the challenge of sending MIDI to an effect that has both audio in (what it does its thing on) and MIDI in to to control of modulation depth or some other facet of its operation.
 
Take Absynth as an example.  It can be used as an effect, and its Aetherizer is a pretty cool one and somewhat unique.  But it requires note-on events to open the gates, otherwise, no sound out.  For most situations, modulating with a MIDI CC can be done equally well with automation, possibly using MIDI learn in the DAW of a slider or knob to provide the recordable automation data.  Once that MIDI data reaches the DAW, it gets tranformed into automation data.  But note-on events?  I can't see how that could be made to work. 
 
Also consider the new FXpansion delay Bloom.  That can effectively use note number, velocity and a random number generated for each note-on as modulation sources.  Same deal as Absynth.  To do that it needs to be fed both MIDI and audio.  This is what I think MIDI sends would be a really nice thing to have.

you can use this function in reaper, and very easy too...

just drop your vst effect into the track, then select your midi input, and your are ready to go, without any limits...

Its not something I have done much of, but I did not have too much of a problem setting up NI's "The Mouth" in Sonar. This requires both audio and MIDI inputs. I am not anywhere near my DAW to confirm the process but IIRC you insert Reaktor into the audio track effects bin as a synth. You can then assign any MIDI track to control it.

This all seemed to work well, the only problem being the only immediate use I could find for "The Mouth" was amusing the grand children and frightening the cat.

I'm pretty clueless when it comes to Absynth, but can you not just drop Absynth FX on a track, create a MIDI track, output it to Absynth FX, and then set up the relevant key triggers in the Perform tab in Absynth? 

sharke


I'm pretty clueless when it comes to Absynth, but can you not just drop Absynth FX on a track, create a MIDI track, output it to Absynth FX, and then set up the relevant key triggers in the Perform tab in Absynth? 

I think thats just about it. I not sure if things have changed in X2 but in 8.5 the key was inserting the effect "as a synth" that is where the confusion lies. If you just insert it as a normal effect you will not see it in the list of MIDI destinations.
 
Edit - http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013086 its a bit old but this article on using Pentagon as a Vocoder has some relevance. Here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK6CyNTwATg

sharke


I'm pretty clueless when it comes to Absynth, but can you not just drop Absynth FX on a track, create a MIDI track, output it to Absynth FX, and then set up the relevant key triggers in the Perform tab in Absynth? 

To use Absynth as as effect (processing some other synth's output), you'd need to be able to input MIDI and input audio on the same track.  Cubase's MIDI sends allegedly provide you with a way to do this (sending MIDI to any alternate destination that accepts MIDI input), but I'm at a loss to see how to accomplish it in Sonar.
 
Now, apart from the Aetherizer effect, who'd want to use one synth as an effect for another when we've got so many solid VST plug-in effects at our disposal in the first place?  Not a lot of people, I'm sure.  But as I said in an earlier post, I have a growing number of plug-ins which accept MIDI input and do useful things with note-on, velocity, and so forth.  Maybe these capabilities would only be used very occassionaly, but it would nice to know you could use them if you wanted.
 
I guess what I'd really like to have in Sonar is a MIDI-through destination after any device that accepts MIDI in.  Send your MIDI track to a synth track, but let that MIDI continue on to some other destination, which in turn could have a MIDI-through, and so on.  That would be just like the real world ... or at least the real world as it was before software synths dominated the landscape.  I can't believe it would be a great technical feat to provide this feature in a DAW.  It's one that would be immensely convenient to have in some situations.
 
 

Glyn Barnes


Edit - http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013086 its a bit old but this article on using Pentagon as a Vocoder has some relevance. Here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK6CyNTwATg

Thanks, Glyn.  I'll definitely check these out.

dmbaer

sharke


I'm pretty clueless when it comes to Absynth, but can you not just drop Absynth FX on a track, create a MIDI track, output it to Absynth FX, and then set up the relevant key triggers in the Perform tab in Absynth? 

To use Absynth as as effect (processing some other synth's output), you'd need to be able to input MIDI and input audio on the same track.  Cubase's MIDI sends allegedly provide you with a way to do this (sending MIDI to any alternate destination that accepts MIDI input), but I'm at a loss to see how to accomplish it in Sonar.
 
Now, apart from the Aetherizer effect, who'd want to use one synth as an effect for another when we've got so many solid VST plug-in effects at our disposal in the first place?  Not a lot of people, I'm sure.  But as I said in an earlier post, I have a growing number of plug-ins which accept MIDI input and do useful things with note-on, velocity, and so forth.  Maybe these capabilities would only be used very occassionaly, but it would nice to know you could use them if you wanted.
 
I guess what I'd really like to have in Sonar is a MIDI-through destination after any device that accepts MIDI in.  Send your MIDI track to a synth track, but let that MIDI continue on to some other destination, which in turn could have a MIDI-through, and so on.  That would be just like the real world ... or at least the real world as it was before software synths dominated the landscape.  I can't believe it would be a great technical feat to provide this feature in a DAW.  It's one that would be immensely convenient to have in some situations.
 
 

Did you try what Glyn suggested and insert Absynth in an FX bin or chain as a synth instead of Absynth FX? I tried it last night and it works, i.e. audio is going into Absynth and coming out processed by Absynth effects. You can then create a MIDI track and set its output to Absynth - it will show up in the list of possible outputs since you inserted the synth version and not the FX version. Like I said, I'm at this point clueless about using MIDI to control the effects in Absynth, but it sounds like this will accomplish what you want to do. I did however throw Absynth as an effect on a Scarbee A-200 track and tried one of the Absynth effect presets, a phaser. It sounded great and I'm sticking with it!