Hello Everyone,
 
I was wondering if my mix is wrong if my RMS/Peak with ALL instruments (including snares/percussion/cymbs) is -28/-14 db but when I un-mute the kick my mix goes to RMS/Peak of -22/-7 db
 
Should the kick be effecting the mix so hard like that?
 
this is electronic dance music.

Thank You,
Adam

a wav file is a wav file.
 
a peak, is a peak.
 
a kick, has probably the single biggest peak, other than the snare, of anything you record.
 
your job, is to tame, the peaks, mix the total the way you want to hear it,
control the dynamics, and make a killer mix.
 
now, what's the question again?
 

just wanted to know if thats normal.

If a total mix is around -28 db (rms) and -14 peak it could be said that it is a little low in level to begin with.
A good rms value for a mix could be -20 dB rms or even higher at -14 dB rms (for EDM I would be working at a higher ref level in preparation for a louder master later on)
 
The kick on its own is hard to measure rms wise unless it has a long decay and a lot of sustained energy. If it is a tight kick then the rms meter will never be accurate because it is too slow to show the real story.  Peak metering comes into effect here.  A kick could peak as high as -6 dB FS and still be well clear of 0 dB FS.
 
Once you send all the drums to a buss say then you could put the rms meter over the whole drum sound and you should be able to see a more accurate picture of the total drum rms value. Which if I was working at say a ref of -14 then the drum buss would be pushing -14 dB FS (rms) and quite high eg -6 to -4 dB FS peaks. If you have got your dynamics processors set right then you can still prevent clipping even with peaky instruments.
 
In the mix however if I started with the drum buss first I would only push it to say -3 to -4 dB on the main stereo VU meter (which really means -17 to -18 dB rms levels at a -14 dB ref level) that allows some room for all the other stuff to come in and by the time it all does your mix should be just sitting at your chosen ref level eg -14 dB rms (if you are working at -14 rms ref level)
 
The kick drum is often loud in EDM but that is fine too. That is a mix issue. You can still create a mix that has a loud kick but still sit right on your chosen ref level too.
 
You need to think about a ref level before you even start. Calibrate your system and set up proper VU meters to read and show rms values anywhere you want to put them.  Without any of this you are stabbing in the dark like so many others do.

i guess what i am really trying to find out here is if my ratio is normal for a mix?   technically for most electronic music, if you remove the kick, does your RMS and peak take a hit like that on your master?   Or should i be aiming for a more "even" mix.   

For instance if I remove some strings or piano, the RMS and peaks dont really change on the master bus.  should the kick drum have the same effect if removed or SHOULD it be the track responsible for the peaks that i have now?

use your ears,
not a meter.

There is always going to be one (or two) elements in a mix that will create a high peak and low rms ratio. Taking them out eg kick/snare/hats will alter that. I don't think it matters. Even if you were working around  a ref level of say -20 db rms and the peaks reached as high as -4 to -6 dB FS it just means that music contains a lot of transient material.
 
Other genres won't produce the same rms to peak ratio. The real fun starts when you are mastering all this. Even if you have a great mix that is averaging -20 rms and peaks as high as -3 dB after mastering that is going to change anyway. The rms value of the mix is going to get higher and the peaks will stay much the same meaning the peaks won't be so high above your rms values.
 
Listen to some well mastered material in the same genre and open it up in an editor and have a look. You will get an idea of how loud the rms levels need to be and how high the peaks are compared to that. (after mastering of course)
 
The only way to maintain accurate and consistent rms levels throughout your signal chain is with the (rms VU) meter. Your ears in some instances will have trouble discerning even a 3 dB level change but on a (VU) meter it is very obvious.  You certainly need some decent metering especially in the mastering stages. In fact three types of metering VU, Dynamic Range and Loudness metering. The best mastering engineers dont just wing it with their ears, sorry.

batsbrew
use your ears,
not a meter.

hey why dont you stop being a sarcastic fu(k and maybe realize some of us are new to audio engineering and have "noob" type questions!

For me using the sonar meters, -18 db RMS is about where I like to land, with a peak of -6db.  Use the gain structure to fix your mix-trim, try to leave the actual faders alone.  I'm not sure if you use the pro channel but if you do, use the console emulator first and have everything feed into this, this has a trim knob too. The "VU" meters should sit around -18 again. 
 
Ben

Sonar's rms meters are not very helpful. Add to the fact they also read -3db down on the actual rms value does not help.  What you need to read rms or VU is a VU meter plugin that shows 0 dB VU while the signal is at the chosen reference level. eg -18 or -14 or -20 etc..
 
So the meter is nearly full scale deflection (less 3 db that is) hence it much easier to read and match levels everywhere.
 
More accurately than your ears might I add.
 
There are times where your ears tell you something different though. And this is if you have a bunch of mastered tracks (dense with lots of instruments etc) and you are getting them all to read the same on a VU mter. That is good.  But if you include a track of just guitar and vocals say and you get it to read the exact same VU reading it will appear louder.  Your ears are telling you something different to the VU meter in that situation.  But then again a loudness meter will give you the true story.  Hence the reason why you use multiple metering systems in mastering.