alewgro

batsbrew
use your ears,
not a meter.

hey why dont you stop being a sarcastic fu(k and maybe realize some of us are new to audio engineering and have "noob" type questions!

He's not being sarcastic, that's the best advice a "noob" can have when faced with a studio full of knobs, buttons, faders and flashing lights.  Music is art, not science. Don't be hung up by the pure data.  If it sounds the way you want it to sound, then it is right.
 
You worry about the peak levels if they start hitting the top, then you can either turn it down or put a processor on that will turn it down for you (which is what a compressor/limiter actually does).
 
 
Please mind your language, replacing a c with ( doesn't cut it..  ok?

alewgro

batsbrew
use your ears,
not a meter.

hey why dont you stop being a sarcastic fu(k and maybe realize some of us are new to audio engineering and have "noob" type questions!

this was very 'sound' advice, not meant to be snarky.
 
maybe you should pay attention instead.
 
 
the point is,
do not learn to mix by using meters.
 
yes they are helpful,
but do not tell but half the story.
 
if your kick NEEDS to be solid and on top of everything in the mix,
then that is the way it is supposed to be.
 
if it is supposed to settle underneath everything,
then you should apply aggressive eq'ing and compression, possibly limiting,
so that there is very little dynamic range, and the signal is constant,
and bring it up to where it belongs.
 
 
do not use meters (eyes)
you use your ears.
always.
use the meters to get in the ballpark,
then focus on nothing but the faders and pan

Its kind of like, if you were asking for advice about oil painting, we would probably tell you to focus on the way it looks first.  To many seem to not really listen to what things sound like and try to do everything with plug ins, compressors, eq, limiting, etc. 
 
Jeff is giving you some great and very useful advice, but don't be afraid to also trust your ears as well. 

Lighten up, guys. Adam asked a reasonable question: is it normal for the crest factor to increase from 14 to 15 when the kick is added in? Short answer: it's nothing to worry about. 
 
What you're seeing is quite normal: the kick defines the highest peaks in the mix. That's especially true for EDM, but also typical of most pop and rock genres as well. When you take the kick out, the whole mix isn't hitting the limiter/bus comp as hard, perhaps not even enough enough to engage the limiter. Put the kick in and peaks go up - as expected. However, the master bus compressor and/or limiter is now responding primarily to the most energetic instrument in the mix - the kick - holding it down to -22dB while raising the average RMS via makeup gain.
 
If there's anything "wrong" with your mix, it may be that your kick is a bit too loud or your bus compressor's threshold is too low. Either way, it's a minor tweak to dial it all in. Also check to see if your kick is too energetic in the subsonic range, which can cause weirdness that you cannot troubleshoot by ear alone.
 
Everybody's right in suggesting that you make such tweaks mainly by ear. Things can often look wrong and sound just fine. However, IMO it's a mistake to dismiss objective measurements, at least as a second opinion. Meters and calculators may not tell you what sounds good, but they can provide important clues about why something sounds bad.
 
 

I think great mixing is a combination of technical and artistic stuff.  It is not one or the other.  Although I think I would prefer mixes that were done by ears more so than meters.
 
I am NOT suggesting using meters to mix.  That is not what I am saying.  The technical stuff or the place to use meters is to ensure you have got all your tracks at the right rms levels first. (Then you will always have available the right amount of any track at your disposal to provide a great mix)
 
Then you assign say a bunch of tracks to a buss.  The balance of the tracks that arrives at that buss is purely ears and skill and art.
 
But once you have got a nice balance using your ears, it certainly does not hurt to check your buss levels using a meter again to make sure your buss mixes are sitting at the right levels.
 
The way multiple buses combine to form a total mix is art again and ears stuff for sure.  But it does not hurt to check your final mix levels using a meter to make sure it too is at the reference level.
 
I see it as using both skills.  The meters don't tell you much about how loud the drums should be in your EDM track.  Only your ears can tell you that information.  Some well known mix engineers have been known to mix roughly using VU meters.  You sort of can do it. eg bringing in your drum buss first into your total mix and set that level using the VU meter eg peaking -3 dB etc.. Then as you add stuff in you end up with a full mix hitting 0 dB VU but that too is still artistic stuff when you think about it.  The meter in this case is just making sure your mix is roughly at the ref level when its all in there.  Instead of it overshooting level wise and then you have to turn all your tracks down a tad to get the level right on the master buss. (many people get into trouble here!! keeping an eye on your final mix levels will prevent this happening)
 
Metering final mixes is actually smart because when it comes to mastering all your tracks are already pretty even and very close to each other.  You do tend to use the meters a little more in mastering because you want everything to and up nice and even without any tracks popping out level wise for any reason or getting lost etc..You can use your ears for this too but usually in conjunction with the meters in mastering.

Jeff Evans
Sonar's rms meters are not very helpful. Add to the fact they also read -3db down on the actual rms value does not help.  What you need to read rms or VU is a VU meter plugin that shows 0 dB VU while the signal is at the chosen reference level. eg -18 or -14 or -20 etc..
 
So the meter is nearly full scale deflection (less 3 db that is) hence it much easier to read and match levels everywhere.
 
More accurately than your ears might I add.
 
There are times where your ears tell you something different though. And this is if you have a bunch of mastered tracks (dense with lots of instruments etc) and you are getting them all to read the same on a VU mter. That is good.  But if you include a track of just guitar and vocals say and you get it to read the exact same VU reading it will appear louder.  Your ears are telling you something different to the VU meter in that situation.  But then again a loudness meter will give you the true story.  Hence the reason why you use multiple metering systems in mastering.
 
 
 

I know that the meters in Sonar aren't quite accurate but if you aim for the levels I have suggested you can't go wrong.  It's about helping a newb who won't get all the technical stuff your talking about.  Ears are great when they are trained but knowing how a mix should sit-visually is equally important.  There is this thing in the world called visual learners...they work better with visual references. 
 
I'm staring to understand this side of the coin now and can articulate it better.  I understand your an ears man Jeff but some us are visual spatial orientated and the meters for us are a better way to shore up a mix.  You still need your ears to set compressors and EQ, but to know that there is headroom and how loud something is relatively via visual clues is great.
 
Its probably an oxy moron to you but, try and understand visual spatial learning...these are real artists but instead of using paint, they use sound.
 
Topic=just aim for -18db as a peak and -6db across your mix and you cant go wrong, IMO.
 
Ben

Ben I totally agree with you on that one. I think you can use visual cues and your ears. I do! Why not, more information. I agree there are so many places in a mix where visual cues are important. eg compressor settings for sure.  What I don't agree with is the people who say just use your ears man because that is all you need. Not true.
 
Another aspect of using visual cues as well is how the VU meter dances over a final mix. eg ballistics. This is an area where most people have no interest or understanding. Yet if they did learn it you realise it is almost a revelation.  Well mixed and mastered music always makes the VU move a certain way. Amateur mixes do NOT move the VU meter the right way at all.
 
As Dave points out too meters can tell you bad things. eg when a VU meter swings wildly and overshoots etc it means something is off eg subsonics or poor dynamics settings.  Once you track down the culprit and dial it in, the meter starts moving real nice. But you do need real VU's in this case though. The VST's have not quite got ballistics right just yet. (Klanghelm is close though)

Maybe I am the only one that has this issue, but I tend to hear things much better when I don't look at the screen, close my eyes and just listen. Of course I use the meters and check the technical side of things, they do provide clues. To me, learning what to hear, is still the key.

I tell you one area where it is good to close your eyes.  If you have done a lot of detailed editing in just one area for example in your arrangement.  Lots of cuts, joins, crossfades, some tricky automation.  All just in one little spot. So you cue up 2 or 4 bars back from there and hit play and listen.
 
If you watch the cursor go right over all the areas of interest and you can see all the details there, I find sometimes you hear more than what is actually going on there. Imaginary glitches etc..
 
Now try backing up again, close your eyes and just drift into a listening state and even put out of your mind all the work you did do in just that one spot for a minute. No visual input, just sound. It will sound better and more often than not, perfect too.
 
I find I can EQ without looking at any curves eg a Pultec EQ. eg it says a dip at 500 Hz so you move it there and start turning and hearing.  But I also like having the EQ curve in front of me too. I like the fact the shape of the bell is easily seen and heard perhaps.  Not sure about compressors though (in terms of visual input) . With them I reckon it is best to do the null test with those and 'listen' to how the compressor recacts around the kicking in and letting go points.
 
I still love the way a VU meter needle dances on a nice hardware VU meter over a great mix and a well mastered track.  It just moves in a sort of liquid way and does not do anything sporadic.  To me this is excellent visual info about a mix or mastered track.  When it is moving wildly it usually means something is out of whack.