mike_mccue


:-)

The graphs just remind me that there are lots of details to listen for when I close my eyes.

:-)


best regards,
mike

I always wondered whether you could read graphs with your eyes closed.


Thanks for clarifying.

I could also say Mike that the way you have conducted this test could also be described as meaningless. And the reason has to do with the many controls available on Xenon that effect how the limiting actually sounds. This fact alone makes it way better than Elephant.

What settings did you use? You say you could not hear the difference between Xenon and Elephant but it may be possible you did not get the correct settings on Xenon in order for it to sound better than Elephant.  Have you downloaded the Xenon manual and read it carefully? I have spent many hours with it especially in a mastering situation and yes there are times when most of those controls don't seem to change things much but I have also encountered situations where they do big time!

On the material you were using you may have set Xenon in such a way that it might sound very close to Elephant but I might be able after an hour of fiddling get Xenon to sound considerably better. There are many options with those controls and for that reason it is not for the faint hearted either. You really have to know what you are doing when you change things on Xenon. 

But saying all that I am sure Elephant is a very good limiter and is probably excellent for most people in a lot of situations.

.....I was watching Elephant's gain reduction graph while switching through the algorithmic modes and it showed me that there is a lot to listen for when experimenting with applying the various algorithmic modes to specific material. 

The same applies to Xenon. You have just not put that sort of quality time into it either. It is double the price and IMO twice as good.  I have been able to create incredibly loud masters with this thing and yet not touch the mix quality at all. Something many many limiters cannot do easily. Quite a few ME use it, they do not use Elephant though. I know why that is.

...the reason has to do with the many controls available on Xenon...this fact alone makes it way better than Elephant.

By that logic, this should be the best limiter ever:


Just look at all them knobs! And 4 - count 'em: 4 - VU meters!


Actually, the above picture is of a quite fine limiter. It also happens to be free. By some measures, this fact alone makes it way better than either Xenon or Elephant.


[EDIT: Oops, I should've counted them. There are 5 meters.]

Thanks Dave for mentioning that limiter. I have come across it before and was wondering in fact how it does perform. I have downloaded it now and will give it a shot and see how it comes up against Xenon. Not sure how a free limiter is going to compete against one that costs $249 though! Could be good you never know. The compressor looks interesting too.

There is more to it of course than just the number of controls but Xenon does give you a lot of control over the limiting process and how it sounds unlike other limiters out there.

.

they extended the offer a few more days , because they wanted to give you more time to test it .... or maybe I just made the last bit up :)

McQ,

16 hours is childs play.

or maybe I just made that last bit up.

I would say the that for Mike Elephant is an excellent limiter and because he is using it the way he is then the differences are subtle and therefore the extra expense into Xenon is probably not warranted.

But I seriously doubt that he has tried all types of program material and it also depends how hard one is pushing things as to what the differences might be. It is all still a bit meaningless because we have still not talked about average levels yet and what the Input control has been set at.

Let me explain. Supposing I am working at a K-14 ref level where the average rms value of the music is say -14 dB FS. Now a typical commercial hard hitting Hip Hop album for example might reach say an average level of K-7 dB FS. So we need to add 7dB. I typically add 7 dB of gain with the Input control on Xenon in order to get the music up another 7 dB. This is where the client expects it to be. The output of the music will be VERY loud and the waveform will be pretty squared off.

So Mike you need to get your hands on a very aggressive Hip Hop mix (unmastered) say and add the required gain to the signal using both limiters to achieve a final output of -7dB rms on average. How do you measure that? Well this is where K metering can come into play. Except that you reset the cal level to K-7 and you need some sort of VU meter in the system to show you a 0 dBu deflection on average with the music outputs from both limiters.

It is then that you might start to find some major differences in how they sound and how they operate. Any limiter may sound as good as Xenon doing lighter limiting duties but really drive them hard and see what comes out. I would be pretty surprised if Elephant sounds as good under those sort of conditions. If it does then I agree there is a great limiter out there that can do it for half the price. But I have found many limiters fall apart under these conditions and that is a situation where Xenon really shines. It is also then that the Xenon controls come to your aid.  

To finish off though even if Xenon does out perform Elephant under severe limiting conditions if you are not doing that then that is also another reason to stick with what you have got. You may be happy with achieving a lower final rms level in the end and that is great. Personally I hate the fact that we have to match the sort of levels that mastering clients expect but that is just one of the things you have to deal with if you do a lot of professional mastering.   

I'm not sure how it stacks up against Xenon but I bought Fabfilter Pro-L and I think it is superb- I gave my copy of Elephant to someone else once I had fully figured it put.

With a recommendation from bitflipper you can get %10 off it's price also and I think this would make it cheaper than Xenon even with it's %38 off.

Bloody hell there are options and they are mostly still expensive