• SONAR
  • is 24/44.1 better than 24/48 ? (p.17)
2007/06/14 12:34:13
mosspa

ORIGINAL: bitflipper
This was a study done in Japan by some major audio manufacturer (like Sony or somebody) where an MRI was used to determine whether or not people could actually hear ultrasonic frequencies. Subjects were asked to A/B music with and without ultrasonics and to subjectively rate them. Subjects could NOT tell the difference, and there was no statistical correlation between their subjective ratings and ultrasonic content. However, the presence of ultrasonic components did cause a measurable effect in the MRI. Their conclusion was that we may be able to subliminally detect them, but that detection does not permeate our consciousness at all.



Actually, bitflipper, I'm surprised you remembered this. However, that isn't exactly how the experiment went down. It was a Japanese study. What was compared was music from LPs and "identical" music from CDs. The actual measuring device was a quantitative EEG (electroencephalograph... recording brain electrical response). Using a frequency analyzer, the experimenters determined that there was significant power in the frequency spectrum from the LPs that extended about 2 octaves from 20K. The CD, of course, produced no energy above 22K. What was interesting about the results, was not that they found that the brain could respond to the inaudable frequencies, but that the response was not immediate. That is, it took a number of minutes for the brain to recognize a difference in the signal and respond to it.

It has been extensively debated in auditory neuroscience circles what this means. One significant question was raised by a group of neuroscientsts (of which I was one). The question we asked was one of perceptual familiarity. In the study (which was conducted in the mid 80s), the subject pool were relatively older (i.e., not students). These people had all "grown up" on listening to music played from LPs. In the test, the LP was compared to CDs for music that they were familiar with (this was to control novelty effect). However, our criticism was in the control of the novelty efect, they were inducing a unique novelty effect, as the main variable (i.e., LP vs CD). There is a lot more than frequency difference that differentiates CDs and LPs. LPs have clicks, pops, and rumble (most people didn't listen to virgin vinyl on an audiophile turntable). The brain could simply have been responding to the absense of this "additional" audible content.

In the mid 90s when I was on sabbitical, i atempted to conduct several experiments that actually possed the familiarity question. By the mid-90s most people of College age had presumably had most of their music listening experiences in the post-CD era. That is, the CD would be the format they were "used" to. Unfortunately, we never came up with a way to test this hypothesis. 192K sampling wasn't very feasible at the time, so there would be no way to preserve the frequency content of an LP while also removing the artifacts of the LP (clicks, pops, rumble, etc). Without being able to remove the audible artifacts, you couldn't do the study correctly, so we passed, and did a study demonstrating that MP3s and CDs did not differ in appreciated quality in a non-A/B test. But, that's another story.

Actual;ly, this study would be really easy to replicate today. Unfortunately I'm retired from science now.
2007/06/14 12:40:50
RnRmaChine
I liked that read mosspa, intriguing.
2007/06/14 12:46:29
SteveD

ORIGINAL: mosspa


ORIGINAL: bitflipper
This was a study done in Japan by some major audio manufacturer (like Sony or somebody) where an MRI was used to determine whether or not people could actually hear ultrasonic frequencies. Subjects were asked to A/B music with and without ultrasonics and to subjectively rate them. Subjects could NOT tell the difference, and there was no statistical correlation between their subjective ratings and ultrasonic content. However, the presence of ultrasonic components did cause a measurable effect in the MRI. Their conclusion was that we may be able to subliminally detect them, but that detection does not permeate our consciousness at all.



Actually, bitflipper, I'm surprised you remembered this. However, that isn't exactly how the experiment went down. It was a Japanese study. What was compared was music from LPs and "identical" music from CDs. The actual measuring device was a quantitative EEG (electroencephalograph... recording brain electrical response). Using a frequency analyzer, the experimenters determined that there was significant power in the frequency spectrum from the LPs that extended about 2 octaves from 20K. The CD, of course, produced no energy above 22K. What was interesting about the results, was not that they found that the brain could respond to the inaudable frequencies, but that the response was not immediate. That is, it took a number of minutes for the brain to recognize a difference in the signal and respond to it.

It has been extensively debated in auditory neuroscience circles what this means. One significant question was raised by a group of neuroscientsts (of which I was one). The question we asked was one of perceptual familiarity. In the study (which was conducted in the mid 80s), the subject pool were relatively older (i.e., not students). These people had all "grown up" on listening to music played from LPs. In the test, the LP was compared to CDs for music that they were familiar with (this was to control novelty effect). However, our criticism was in the control of the novelty efect, they were inducing a unique novelty effect, as the main variable (i.e., LP vs CD). There is a lot more than frequency difference that differentiates CDs and LPs. LPs have clicks, pops, and rumble (most people didn't listen to virgin vinyl on an audiophile turntable). The brain could simply have been responding to the absense of this "additional" audible content.

In the mid 90s when I was on sabbitical, i atempted to conduct several experiments that actually possed the familiarity question. By the mid-90s most people of College age had presumably had most of their music listening experiences in the post-CD era. That is, the CD would be the format they were "used" to. Unfortunately, we never came up with a way to test this hypothesis. 192K sampling wasn't very feasible at the time, so there would be no way to preserve the frequency content of an LP while also removing the artifacts of the LP (clicks, pops, rumble, etc). Without being able to remove the audible artifacts, you couldn't do the study correctly, so we passed, and did a study demonstrating that MP3s and CDs did not differ in appreciated quality in a non-A/B test. But, that's another story.

Actual;ly, this study would be really easy to replicate today. Unfortunately I'm retired from science now.

There are microphones and speakers that can reproduce these ultra-sonics, for studies like the one your citing. But the general population does not own them or listen to LPs or CDs in environments where they would be beneficial. I'm all for bio-feedback, but this equipment is prohibitively expensive, and the environment scientifically tuned. I'm sure you recognize that one doesn't get the benefit at home by playing an LP instead of a CD.
2007/06/14 12:48:48
SteveD

ORIGINAL: RnRmaChine

I am asking this for real... IF I record at 44.1 and then SRC to 88.2 the only thing in those new frequencies would be crap that has nothing to do with the music recorded... right? how can you get something from nothing? I understand there would be some measurable crap going on, why wouldn't there be!!!


Hi again John,

Actually, importing a 44.1k file into an 88.2k project would have no ultra-sonics at all. None.

That would be the opposite of the test I posted. You are to record at 88.2k and export to 44.1k to REMOVE the ultra-sonics. Then import that back into the 88.2K project. It will get converted on import to 88.2K but without the ultra-sonics because no AD converter was used to produce this file. You now have one mix with the ultra-sonics and one mix without them in the same 88.2k project. Flip the phase on the imported mix and everything between the two mixes that is identical nulls out assuming you don't change anything... leaving just the ultra-sonics which you say you can hear. The meters show they are there.

Try it. Do you hear anything in the audible range?
2007/06/14 12:50:52
mosspa

ORIGINAL: bitflipper

Found this beauty:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ashon/audio/Ultrasonics.htm


That link really was a good find. I knew that ultrasonic components in a cymbal were significant, but I never would have guessed they would account for 40%!

You learn something new every day. I thought Gamelon was Godzilla's nemesis. Now I know better.


Edit: just finished reading the whole thing. The author seems to just accept the claim that you can greatly improve the playback of 16/44.1 Redbook CDs by resampling at 24/192. I'd have to be convinced.



This is much more convincing study. I will have to find it. Thank's bitflipper. As to the article you linked, the are a lot of questions I'd ask. The author appears to be the kind of individual who would find audio improvement in using a $1500 power cord
2007/06/14 13:16:21
RnRmaChine

ORIGINAL: SteveD


Hi again John,

Actually, importing a 44.1k file into an 88.2k project would have no ultra-sonics at all. None.

That would be the opposite of the test I posted. You are to record at 88.2k and export to 44.1k to REMOVE the ultra-sonics. Then import that back into the 88.2K project. It will get converted on import to 88.2K but without the ultra-sonics because no AD converter was used to produce this file. You now have one mix with the ultra-sonics and one mix without them in the same 88.2k project. Flip the phase on the imported mix and everything between the two mixes that is identical nulls out assuming you don't change anything... leaving just the ultra-sonics which you say you can hear. The meters show they are there.

Try it. Do you hear anything in the audible range?


OK, I didn't read that post I basically skimmed through it (and I appologize to you AND myself for missing it) because there are soo many in here.. but I had come across a few while skimming that were talking about upsampling and I couldn't see the point. Please correct me if I am wrong but if you record at 44.1 and upsample to 88.2 and work in an 88.2 environment isn't that stupid to put it blunty? I don't see the logic, please point it out to me if I am missing something.

I never claimed I heard anything... I haven't done the test so how could I. Interesting test though. I wouldn't have ever thought of it, I don't think I would have anyway but who knows, I have messed with phase cancelization so I could learn and understand it better in a real world environment. (BTW I am a machinist both manual and CNC programming so I completly understand the theory world and then the practical world and how there are differences). I honestly don't think anyone is claiming to have dog ears, hehe but the time I have spent looking into this stuff I don't think anyone ever claims to be able to actually hear it where they can put a finger on it. It's more they feel affected by it.

Another question here... Is everyone that truly understands this claiming that sampling at 192 as opposed to 44.1 produces no truer waveform reproduction/replication? all other things being equal!! You guys keep refering to it as the only difference is the frequency response. When I hear the difference between the two it don't sound at all like it's just the repsonse. There is more there then that.. I swear it. I do not delude myself, I am very methodical when I ask and try to answer questions to myself.
And please people, I am asking for info on this from someone who knows, who is educated in this area NOT for opinions or from someone who just thinks they know cause they want to agree with other members cause they want to be "in" the "in" crowd. I don't care about that crap I am trying to make music here and trying to help others as best I can.
2007/06/14 13:53:07
SteveD

ORIGINAL: RnRmaChine


ORIGINAL: SteveD


Hi again John,

Actually, importing a 44.1k file into an 88.2k project would have no ultra-sonics at all. None.

That would be the opposite of the test I posted. You are to record at 88.2k and export to 44.1k to REMOVE the ultra-sonics. Then import that back into the 88.2K project. It will get converted on import to 88.2K but without the ultra-sonics because no AD converter was used to produce this file. You now have one mix with the ultra-sonics and one mix without them in the same 88.2k project. Flip the phase on the imported mix and everything between the two mixes that is identical nulls out assuming you don't change anything... leaving just the ultra-sonics which you say you can hear. The meters show they are there.

Try it. Do you hear anything in the audible range?


OK, I didn't read that post I basically skimmed through it (and I appologize to you AND myself for missing it) because there are soo many in here.. but I had come across a few while skimming that were talking about upsampling and I couldn't see the point. Please correct me if I am wrong but if you record at 44.1 and upsample to 88.2 and work in an 88.2 environment isn't that stupid to put it blunty? I don't see the logic, please point it out to me if I am missing something.

I never claimed I heard anything... I haven't done the test so how could I. Interesting test though. I wouldn't have ever thought of it, I don't think I would have anyway but who knows, I have messed with phase cancelization so I could learn and understand it better in a real world environment. (BTW I am a machinist both manual and CNC programming so I completly understand the theory world and then the practical world and how there are differences). I honestly don't think anyone is claiming to have dog ears, hehe but the time I have spent looking into this stuff I don't think anyone ever claims to be able to actually hear it where they can put a finger on it. It's more they feel affected by it.

Another question here... Is everyone that truly understands this claiming that sampling at 192 as opposed to 44.1 produces no truer waveform reproduction/replication? all other things being equal!! You guys keep refering to it as the only difference is the frequency response. When I hear the difference between the two it don't sound at all like it's just the repsonse. There is more there then that.. I swear it. I do not delude myself, I am very methodical when I ask and try to answer questions to myself.
And please people, I am asking for info on this from someone who knows, who is educated in this area NOT for opinions or from someone who just thinks they know cause they want to agree with other members cause they want to be "in" the "in" crowd. I don't care about that crap I am trying to make music here and trying to help others as best I can.


Wonderful response John. If you hit the search feature on this forum and lookup SRC or 96k or anything you can think of to find threads on this topic with me as a userid, you find I've done lots of research on this and we've been discussing it here for years. Every year the topic comes back. I and others are trying hard to make sure good information is known by folks learning and sharing knowledge as they understand it here on this forum.

Correct... Nyquist theorized and Shannon later proved that any sample rate that is more than twice the highest recorded frequency is sufficient to capture and reproduce acurately and completely that source of audio upto and including that upper range of audio.

It's called the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling Theorum <link> and it's the fundimental principal of digital recording.

Thus, 44.1khz is more than sufficient to capture and reproduce audio that your mics can pickup and your speakers can reproduce and your (I should say MOST) ears can hear.

The advantage of upsampling 44.1k audio for mixing and mastering would be because plugins do a "better" job at those sample rates. I should say a "different" job. The better is subjective... but they do sound different.

The point is... you don't need more than 44,000 samples per second to capture and reproduce 20-20k audio more completely. As UnderTow said... It's not about greater resolution. More samples doesn't give you better or more sound. Just greater frequency response.

However, less expensive AD converters and processing software have an easier time of keeping aliasing artifacts caused by the conversion process out of the audible range at higher sample rates... so you get a cleaner sound. Less digital garbage in the audible range. High-end converters and well made plugins and software keep this to a minimum in the audible range... and it keeps getting better and better. This is why I track with Apogee converters and use only well known and rather expensive plugins in my mixes. It allows me to remain satisfied with what I can do at 44/24. That equate into higher track counts, more instances of plugins, and the fastest possible bounces and exports.

Finally, one should be aware that recording at high sample rates and then downsampling to 44.1khz for CD production without expensive hardware SRC can do just as much or more damage than tracking and mixing at 44.1k by an experienced engineer.

This is all we're saying.
2007/06/14 14:12:08
Junski
ORIGINAL: mosspa


ORIGINAL: bitflipper

Found this beauty:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ashon/audio/Ultrasonics.htm


That link really was a good find. I knew that ultrasonic components in a cymbal were significant, but I never would have guessed they would account for 40%!

...




This is much more convincing study. I will have to find it. Thank's bitflipper. As to the article you linked, the are a lot of questions I'd ask. The author appears to be the kind of individual who would find audio improvement in using a $1500 power cord


Hmm.. you maybe get some lightning by reading the original paper w/ measures (links given in posts #135 & #140).
There were mentioned also that "keys jangling" has 68% of energy left >20kHz (I have checked this w/ a recording made using 24/96 'resolution' ... by the spectral data got from Audition 2 and Sonogram SG-1 (screenshot)) it looks valid statement.

Junski
2007/06/14 14:22:35
SteveD

ORIGINAL: Junski

ORIGINAL: mosspa


ORIGINAL: bitflipper

Found this beauty:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ashon/audio/Ultrasonics.htm


That link really was a good find. I knew that ultrasonic components in a cymbal were significant, but I never would have guessed they would account for 40%!

...




This is much more convincing study. I will have to find it. Thank's bitflipper. As to the article you linked, the are a lot of questions I'd ask. The author appears to be the kind of individual who would find audio improvement in using a $1500 power cord


Hmm.. you maybe get some lightning by reading the original paper w/ measures (links given in posts #135 & #140).
There were mentioned also that "keys jangling" has 68% of energy left >20kHz (I have checked this w/ a recording made using 24/96 'resolution' ... by the spectral data got from Audition 2 and Sonogram SG-1 (screenshot)) it looks valid statement.

Junski


And you have speakers that can reproduce the "energy" >20k?
2007/06/14 14:32:17
RnRmaChine
Thankyou Steve,
Ok I already understood most of that the way you put it. BUT...

Another question though: So if you own "cheap" converters you would technically gain by tracking at higher samples rates but if you coughed up a wad for real expensive converters it's not going to make enough of a difference to matter in a real world sense to compensate for the added grief of trackin/converting and the work that goes into taking the extra steps. I am sure we all agree there are MANY times when the extra steps taken in ANY process are what separates the novice from the pro.

And since you obviously have a good grasp on this I'd like to ask you blunty. Do you think the converters in the E-mu 1820m (they are supposed to be the same ones that digidesign uses in their protools, the real pro tools for pros) are good ones where I should put my time into other things rather then take the extra work it takes to track higher and SRC?
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