• SONAR
  • is 24/44.1 better than 24/48 ? (p.2)
2007/06/08 17:43:29
Roflcopter
So you've gained more top end even though it's in an inaudible range.


Funny, it's inaudible, but that in no sense means you cannot hear it. Maybe time for some redefinement of terms, before kids think we're talking poop here. How DO you describe that audible inaudible difference properly?
2007/06/08 18:02:19
Jose7822
Funny, it's inaudible, but that in no sense means you cannot hear it. Maybe time for some redefinement of terms, before kids think we're talking poop here. How DO you describe that audible inaudible difference properly?


Ok, I guess I deserved that for not explaining. Here's a piece of an article I found online by Michael Fraser:

"...the real benefit to 96kHz is not the increased resolution, but the MUCH shallower brickwall (anti-alias) filter afforded by the 48.1kHz Nyquist limit. With 44.1, you have to go from full signal acceptance at 20kHz, to ZERO acceptance at 22.05kHz (the Nyquist limit of a 44.1kHz sampling rate). That is, for a 24-bit signal, -144dB in about 1/10 of an octave (slightly less steep in practice). This is a VERY steep filter. For a 44.8kHz Nyquist limit, your filter goes from full acceptance at 20kHz to zero at 48.1kHz (MUCH less steep). This has REAL sonic benefits. BUT, you will have to downsample if you're distributing to CD, so the benefits might not last.

It's not a "numbers game". It's a real consideration for many people. For me, I use 24/44.1 and it sounds great."



Here's another one by Shawn Micheal:

"As for sample rate, there has been much research that proves that there is a major difference between the human ear ability to hear test tones and upper order harmonics. Music reproduced with a minimum bandwidth out to 70kHz is capable of flooding the brain with endorphins, whereas the brain releases NONE when maximum bandwidth only goes out to 20kHz. When I was a kid listening to music really was better, emotionally that is.

When recording I believe that the sample rate and bit depth used should be determined by the source material AND the final product."



Hope this explains it better .
2007/06/08 18:07:18
Roflcopter
Music reproduced with a minimum bandwidth out to 70kHz is capable of flooding the brain with endorphins


Think for me this is the real eye-opener. I must investigate this at once....
2007/06/08 18:54:13
bitflipper
How DO you describe that audible inaudible difference properly?


If it's truly inaudible, then by definition it cannot be sensed by the human ear and is therefore irrelevant. (I am not talking about subsonic frequencies that can be felt as vibrations but not heard, but rather frequencies above the range of hearing, theoretically > 20KHz but for most of us anything over 15KHz to 18KHz.)

However, ultrasonic frequencies are not necessarily inaudible except when they exist as pure sine waves. In the presence of other frequencies, anything other than a pure sine wave, ultrasonic components interact with each other and with audible frequencies, generating sum and difference frequencies that are indeed audible.

Remember that much of the texture of sound that we hear in an acoustical space is the result of room dynamics, resonances, and acoustical summations and cancellations. The interplay between all of the components result in sum and difference frequencies that account for a great deal of the richness of complex sounds.

Cymbals are a good example because even though their fundamental frequencies are fairly low (a large crash cymbal might be down around 1.5-2KHz) they generate a very complex waveform with frequency components that extend way out past audibility. Those high frequencies combine to form new frequencies that the cymbal itself did not generate, but that only came into existence as acoustical phenomena. It's the main reason cymbals sound so different live than when recorded. As those frequencies decay at different rates, the sum and difference frequencies ebb and flow, creating the rich dynamic texture that is the holy grail of every recordist to capture.

So there is a definite advantage to preserving "inaudible" frequencies during the analog phase of recording, especially for instruments that have a rich high-frequency component, such as cymbals and acoustic guitars. Of course, those frequencies will be completely eliminated during the A/D conversion process if your sample rate is 44.1KHz, as they must be. Consequently, you are only going to record audible frequencies below 20KHz no matter what pains you took to capture higher frequencies within the analog realm. But it shouldn't matter -- the acoustical magic has already happened prior to conversion, and those synthesized frequencies formed by the interaction of ultrasonics are already in there. As Nyquist theorized and Shannon proved mathematically, a 40KHz sample rate can accurately record and recreate any audible frequency.

The question, then, is what advantage there might be in preserving those ultrasonic frequencies throughout the entire process, including within the digital domain, so that they have a second shot at acoustical interaction at playback time. The answer is a definite "maybe". You'll hear the effect on some instruments, but not on others. Whatever portion of your music was derived from synthesizers and samplers will not benefit. Unless you are recording primarily live acoustical instruments, you'll just be wasting disk space.


Geez, I hope this is making any sense at all. I am on medication this week, as I am recuperating from a heart attack that whacked me this past Monday night. I'm supposed to kick back and do nothing, but blathering on about digital audio is as close to doing nothing as I can manage.





2007/06/08 18:59:09
Roflcopter
as I am recuperating from a heart attack that whacked me this past Monday night


Wow man, that's no joke. Take good care, and get well fast. Saw this first somehow, will read the rest at leisure.
2007/06/08 19:03:50
bitflipper
"...the real benefit to 96kHz is not the increased resolution, but the MUCH shallower brickwall (anti-alias) filter afforded by the 48.1kHz Nyquist limit. With 44.1, you have to go from full signal acceptance at 20kHz, to ZERO acceptance at 22.05kHz (the Nyquist limit of a 44.1kHz sampling rate). That is, for a 24-bit signal, -144dB in about 1/10 of an octave (slightly less steep in practice). This is a VERY steep filter. For a 44.8kHz Nyquist limit, your filter goes from full acceptance at 20kHz to zero at 48.1kHz (MUCH less steep). This has REAL sonic benefits. BUT, you will have to downsample if you're distributing to CD, so the benefits might not last.


This may be misleading, because while it's true that you need a very steep filter when sampling at 44.1KHz, nobody actually samples at that rate anymore. All A/D converters these days oversample at 64 or 128 times the sample rate, for the very reason cited in the Micheal Fraser quote -- so the anti-aliasing filter can have a gentle slope. When we say we're sampling at 44.1KHz, what we're really saying is that we're sampling at 5.6MHz and tossing away 127 of every 128 samples.

"As for sample rate, there has been much research that proves that there is a major difference between the human ear ability to hear test tones and upper order harmonics. Music reproduced with a minimum bandwidth out to 70kHz is capable of flooding the brain with endorphins, whereas the brain releases NONE when maximum bandwidth only goes out to 20kHz. When I was a kid listening to music really was better, emotionally that is.


This was a study done in Japan by some major audio manufacturer (like Sony or somebody) where an MRI was used to determine whether or not people could actually hear ultrasonic frequencies. Subjects were asked to A/B music with and without ultrasonics and to subjectively rate them. Subjects could NOT tell the difference, and there was no statistical correlation between their subjective ratings and ultrasonic content. However, the presence of ultrasonic components did cause a measurable effect in the MRI. Their conclusion was that we may be able to subliminally detect them, but that detection does not permeate our consciousness at all.
2007/06/08 19:08:42
bitflipper
Wow man, that's no joke. Take good care, and get well fast.


Thanks, Rob. Yeh, this pretty much means I have to give up the last of my bad habits for good. I am doomed to a life without drugs, alcohol, tobacco, salt or saturated fat. Music is all I have left!
2007/06/08 19:19:43
Roflcopter
Found this beauty:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ashon/audio/Ultrasonics.htm

[edit] Well, losing a few kg's didn't hurt me, but no smoking - oops.

Do take good care of yourself, we can't miss your input here, going AWOL on us is out of the question, we're simply not having it.
2007/06/08 19:25:40
bobr
Bitflipper, that was an excellent post as have been many of the previous ones in this thread. You folks are taking me to school. I just hope I can take it all in.

Mainly though I want to say best regards in your recovery and I wish you besh of health moving forward.

Take care,


Bob
2007/06/08 19:31:51
bobr

ORIGINAL: bitflipper




Thanks, Rob. Yeh, this pretty much means I have to give up the last of my bad habits for good. I am doomed to a life without drugs, alcohol, tobacco, salt or saturated fat. Music is all I have left!


Ouch!
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