• Hardware
  • Phantom power and interface Pres going bad
2014/02/22 19:52:21
gswitz
Hi...
 
I have an old M-Audio interface that the pres went bad on after a while.
 
A friend of mine has a Zoom device that has gone bad.
 
I'm starting to wonder whether plugging in mic cables while phantom is on might have caused this.
 
(I never hooked up my friend's interface btw - wasn't me!)
 
I just don't want my current interface to go bad. I've become pretty careful with my gear. I just thought I'd see what you all have to say about this...
2014/02/22 20:27:05
The Maillard Reaction
I think the only way to figure it out would be for a service tech to discover the actual problem. It is likely that one of the parts just wore out, but there is a possibility that there might be a clue about how some pattern of usage caused the problem.
 
When a manufacturer is looking at components to put in a device they have lots of choices. For example, some capacitors are rated at 500 hours of use before failure (Mean Time Before Failure) and some are rated at 10,000 hours before failure. Guess which cost more. :-)
 
best regards,
mike
 
 
 
 
2014/02/22 21:00:00
gswitz
haha! Thanks, Mike. That makes me feel better.
 
I use my interface for a usually a few hours every day, so... I guess I might have just worn mine out.
 
Not so sure about my friend though.
 
I've definitely taken to turning off phantom power before plugging and unplugging mics. It can't hurt.
 
:-)
 
Geoff
2014/02/23 02:33:37
bitflipper
Can't hurt, but also shouldn't be necessary. A properly-designed phantom power supply should tolerate you placing a dead short across the jack's contacts and leaving it that way for a week. It is possible that heat buildup may have caused premature failure in the 48V regulator or one of its filter capacitors, as Mike suggested. No way to know without having somebody open it up and diagnosing the real problem.
2014/02/23 09:59:30
SuperG
heat buildup

 
+1
 
Yes - capacitors are usually the first to go.
 
Heh, in the early days of surface mount, ball-grid chips....
 
 
2014/02/23 14:09:14
wst3
gswitzI have an old M-Audio interface that the pres went bad on after a while.

Which one? I was a designer there way back when, it might be one I worked on, and if it is I might be able to provide some pointers...
 
A couple questions:
  1. Do any of the front panel LEDs still illuminate?
  2. Does the preamplifier still work with a dynamic microphone?
  3. Is the output noisy, with or without a microphone connected?
gswitzA friend of mine has a Zoom device that has gone bad.

Can't really help with that one, sorry.
gswitzI'm starting to wonder whether plugging in mic cables while phantom is on might have caused this.

 
Phantom Power is, at best, a compromise. It probably causes as many problems as it solves! Well, almost.
 
For lower priced preamplifiers the 48VDC is usually generated using what's called a voltage doubler, which can in fact double the voltage, but it does limit the current - the lack of a 'real' 48V power supply is challenge #1 for several reasons, but I'll spare you. Current is not a big challenge - the maximum current allowed for phantom power is on the order of 10mA.
 
The 48VDC is applied to the "plus" and "minus" pins of the microphone input through a pair of 6800 ohm resistors, and matching is important, but not critical for the phantom power. It is critical for Common Mode Rejection Ratio, since an imbalance between the resistors will create an impedance imbalance at the input. That's challenge #2.
 
Phantom power applies the same voltage to both pins 2 and 3 so that the microphone element does not "see" a potential difference. Again matching the impedance from each signal pin to ground becomes important, since any imbalance will place a voltage across the element.
 
AND... this is where several myths about phantom power arise. Hot-plugging phantom powered microphones is considered a bad idea, but in fact there is little difference between hot-plugging an XLR connector and flipping a switch. (For the record, there are ways to ramp up the power to avoid thumps and other problems, but you don't find these refinements in lower cost devices.)
 
HOWEVER, hot plugging a 1/4" TRS connector with phantom power applied is a really bad idea. Each side of the power supply gets shorted, briefly, and that not only causes very loud thumps (think a 36 dBu transient), but it can also damage the power supply, and the microphone element.
 
Another popular myth is that dynamic microphone elements can be damaged by phantom power. This is a case of "it depends", but almost all modern designs place dynamic elements (even ribbons) across the pair, so that there is no potential voltage applied across the element. I still try to avoid knowingly connecting dynamic microphones to phantom power supplies, but I don't lose sleep over it.
 
If you are still curious about phantom power I recommend the following papers:
  • The minds at THAT Corp presented a paper at the 2001 AES convention that describes the challenges facing circuit designers. They followed this up with a second paper at the 2009 convention. These are must reads for anyone designing or repairing microphone preamplifiers!
  • NTI (Neutrik Instruments) published an application note that goes into excruciating detail about testing phantom power. I really wish this had been around when I was designing!
  • Eddie Ciletti wrote a great article for EQ magazine way back in 1999 that remains one of the best I've come across. If you read only one read this one (but really, read them all!)
Repairing your M-Audio preamplifier may be as simple as replacing a couple of capacitors (or quite a few, depending on the extent of the damage.) Well worth the effort I think.
 
If the preamplifier is still working for dynamic microphones you could also consider an external phantom supply. I have a couple, and they provide better, more stable, and quieter phantom power than many of my other preamplifiers.
 
2014/02/23 14:16:43
The Maillard Reaction
wst3
Phantom Power is, at best, a compromise. 



 
Say it isn't so <G>!!!
2014/02/23 17:26:59
gswitz
wst3,
 
My M-Audio Interface is this one...
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may08/articles/fasttrackultra.htm
Fast Track Ultra
 
The Pres make noise all the time... when phantom is on or off. When nothing is plugged in. when the inputs are set to the front.
 
When inputs are set to the back, it works fine.
 
Lights appear to be working.
 
I've taken it apart and didn't see anything obviously wrong.
 
I don't really use it anymore. I have a new RME UCX which works great.
2014/02/23 20:59:43
Cactus Music
The few times I've seen damaged pre amps due to phantom power, where as Bill has described plugging or unplugging a 1/4" jack, be it TRS or TS into a mixer that has both XLR and 1/4" input jacks. Lots of mixer have this configuration and now we have the omni present "combi" jack on interfaces and other pre amps.  
 
By its nature an XLR jacks pins only contact their matching connector.
But a 1/4" jack can briefly short the pins out on it's way in or out as Bill was saying.
One would think that phantom power should not even be there in the first place but sometimes it is. And these are the pre amps that got fried on me. Both were Yamaha. Yamaha fixed them under warranty. But since then I have always been real careful about 1/4" jacks and phantom power. To date I think I've seen at least 6 cases of fried pre amp due to Phantom power and 1/4" jacks. 
If a mixer or interface has the option of per channel phantom power this is best. 
If it is in groups, then I make sure to assign channels that need it to only one or two groups and keep it turned off on the rest. 
2014/02/24 07:06:36
The Maillard Reaction
I hot plugged my air compressor into an extension cord last Friday.
 
White blue sparks spit out of the connection as the compressors plug was disintegrated by the arcing current.
 
I had to go buy two new plugs to replace the old ones. From now on I'm going to check the switch on the compressor before I plug that bad boy in.
 
:-)
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