• SONAR
  • Tightening multi-tracked real drumkit by using AudioSnap - anyone using on regular basis?
2016/03/18 22:39:01
panup
I record real drumkits every week. Drums are good but drummers are not always.
I'm very used to fix timing issues manually but now I was wondering if AudioSnap is mature enough to speed up the boring, unmusical phase in song tracking.
 
This is what I did as a novice AudioSnap user:
- Select drum tracks
- Open AudioSnap panel
- Click Power ON button
- Set Averate Tempo to "From Project"
- Click Quantize: 1/16, strength 50%. Change [X] AudioSnap Beats. Swing 50%. Window 100%. Offset 0.
 
Result: bad.
Audio example: http://sonarmods.com/sonarmods/public/forum2016/audiosnap/as-applied.mp3
 
 
Yes, there are AudioSnap tutorials...
 
AudioSnap tips by Craig:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-85-A-Footpedal-for-Your-Processor-m3074655-p2.aspx#3107362
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Fridays-Tip-of-the-Week-85-A-Footpedal-for-Your-Processor-m3074655-p2.aspx#3110584
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may10/articles/sonarnotes_0510.htm
 
CakeTV videos about AudioSnap 2.0  (6 years old):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eud_9acTjCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwaXi540fZQ
 
Manual:
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=3&help=AudioSnap.01.html

Is there somewhere "How to use AudioSnap to tighten real drumkit and preserve phase" tutorial?

 
I feel myself stupid when not understanding how these work:
TIMING: Quantize, Extract Groove, Apply Groove.  Which one to use and when? First you have to Extract groove. From where? Some perfect source track or what?
Filter resolution: I woudn't have no idea without reading manuals twice.
Settings: Pool transient window. Uh.
TEMPO - Edit Clip Map: this looks weird.
 
Does anybody use AudioSnap to quantize multitracked, miced drums with good results? Does it beat human (speed / result)? Any advice to give for a total AudioSnap novice?
 
EDIT: <image removed to save bandwidth>
2016/03/19 03:48:09
Sanderxpander
Whenever I do this it's only to fix small parts and I have to edit/move transient markers all the time. I have never gotten good results letting Audiosnap do what it wants. The Radius Mix algorithm itself sounds pretty good though.
2016/03/19 09:18:09
Razorwit
Hi Panu,
I stopped trying to AS for live multi-tracked drums a while ago...it's just too clunky and my results were never particularly good. These days I export my drums to another program for editing and then pull them back into Sonar to finish mixing. Since this is a Sonar board I try to be polite and refrain from talking about other products, but if you'd like to see how I do it shoot me a PM.
 
Dean
2016/03/19 11:27:32
vanceen
I've never found AutoSnap to be useful for drumset recordings.
 
Selection Groups helps a lot, though.
2016/03/19 12:25:56
John T
I've done a LOT of this recently. I was working with a mainly electronic act who decided they wanted real drums on five songs on their album. So tracking drums after everything else. Which, if you've ever tried it, you'll know is high on the list of utterly terrible ideas that never work.
 
Anyway, what the client wants, the client must have. So I pulled in a brilliant drummer from another band I'd been recording. The guy has unbelievable time. Came in, and pretty much nailed it, as much as you could hope for. But of course, since everything else was absolutely on the grid, "tight" wasn't really cutting it. Had to be bang on the mark.
 
So... AudioSnap can do this. The sonic results are remarkable and artefact free. But AudioSnap does not make it easy. It's incredibly tortuous.
 
Here are the basic steps:
 
1/ Turn on AS for all your drum tracks.
2/ Select the tracks you want to use to generate your AS markers. Let's say Kick and Snare. Set you threshold so you've got those kits marked and nothing you don't want (NOTE: it's not going to be this easy, more horror to follow)
3/ Select the other drum tracks, excluding the kick and snare, and set the threshold to 100%, meaning there are no markers on these other tracks
4/ Zoom into your kick and snare tracks to check the markers
5/ Notice that AS transient detection is really not very good, and lots of the markers are in the wrong place.
6/ Go through the entire song moving markers into position one at a time. Just the markers, by grabbing the dot in the middle. You don't want to move any beats at this time. This will take forever, and you will hate your life by the end of it.
7/ Now you have a useful set of markers. Select all your drum tracks, right click one, and select "Merge and lock markers"
8/ Right click again and find the options to unlock the markers. Because a locked marker is of literally no use whatsoever. One of many inexplicable design decisions. We just want to merge them, but there seems to be no way of doing that on its own.
 
At this point, you now have a meaningful set of makers, applied to all the drum tracks. So any quantisation you now do will be applied to all tracks in a phase coherent way.
 
In my view, all of those steps above should be on a single button. Select all tracks, click a "Multi-track audiosnap ON" button. Dialog opens asking you to choose the timing control tracks. When we have that, AS will be a credible drum timing tool.
 
As things stand, well, it is possible, and it sounds great, but the process of getting there feels very 1998.
 
Here's one of the tracks if anyone's interested:
 
https://black-helicopters.bandcamp.com/track/diagonal-science
 
 
 
 
 
 
2016/03/19 12:36:11
John T
As a follow up note, I have never had any luck with that extract timing / apply groove stuff. I wouldn't even bother with that. Quantise works well after you've set up your markers properly.
2016/03/19 14:17:15
Lord Tim
I do this very regularly and I've had great results with it, with a bit of careful preparation. For a lot of modern metal, for which I do here quite often, quantizing drums is a given (like it or not), I also do a lot of stuff with pop productions where loops and sequences are dropped in and need to be locked to the kit, and I've done the "we recorded the tracks to the drum machine, can we get real drums on it now?" thing as well, and that's gone pretty well for the most part, if not an ideal situation.
 
Most of the tutorials I've seen use splitting clips at transients. I really don't like using this method because unless you have a pretty beefy machine, that amount of splits can be really cumbersome to work with, and you run the risk of the cross fades being in places you don't want, or the gaps too wide to do anything useful with.
 
More annoying is Audiosnap, since SPlat, has been iffy at best when it comes to detecting the transients. It was made better and then the algorithm was changed again which made it slightly worse. There's a couple of tricks to get this over the line, though.
 
So my steps to getting a good Audiosnap are very similar to John's steps above, but with a few extra steps that I've found to get around some of Audiosnap's shortcomings:
 
1. Record the drums (duh)
 
2. Find out which tracks are the main timing guides - usually kick and snare tracks. Clone them.
 
3. Solo the cloned tracks. On the clones, you want to aggressively gate the hell out of them so you're just getting the initial pop on the start of each hit and nothing else - the track has to be completely silent between hits. It'll sound like garbage, but that's not the point - we're not going to be using these for anything other than our timing guide.
 
4. Bounce those gated tracks to a new track. That's going to be your guide track now. You can either mute or delete those original cloned and gated tracks now.
 
5. Enable Audiosnap on all of your tracks, including the new guide track. On the Audiosnap palette, drag the Threshold slider all the way up to 100%. This will make every transient on all of the tracks disappear.
 
6. On your guide track, lower the Threshold until you get a useful amount of transients turn up. If you're lucky, they'll be on every hit, and if you're even more lucky, you won't need to go in and manually move anything to be on the beat and you're good to go.
 
7. More than likely things will need adjusting, so zoom in on your guide track with the transients and move, add or delete transient markers until you have one on every hit. Getting your guide right is crucial to this all working well.
 
8. Right-click the guide track, go to Pool > Add Clip to Pool. All of the transients will turn blue, telling you they've been added to the pool.
 
9. Select all of the other drum tracks, right click on any one of them and go to Pool > Apply transient pool markers. You'll see transient lines appear on all of the clips that line up with the blue transients in the guide track.
 
10. Select all of the tracks (including the guide), right click any one of them and go to Quantize and make sure Audiosnap Beats is checked. Quantize to taste.
 
That should get you 95% of the way there. Mute the guide track and listen back - has the quantizing put beats in the wrong place? You need to go back and manually adjust things. Turn your Snap on, find the beat that's not correct, left-mouse lasso around the transients that are on the wrong beat so they're selected across all of the tracks, and drag to the correct position.
 
All where it should be? Great! This is using the Online stretch algorithm so it won't sound amazing, so you'll need to bounce all of the tracks to new clips so it uses the better quality Offline algorithm. Delete the guide track and you're done!
 
Things to consider:
 
This is locking things up pretty tight. If you don't want things quite as tight, you can play around with groove quantizing and things like that. It's fiddly and results are honestly hit and miss.
 
The reason I went to the trouble of making these guide tracks is because transient detection currently sucks whenever there's any slight bit of noise other than what you want to detect on a track. It's almost to the point of being unworkable, in fact in the past I've gone through and manually placed transients because it's been quicker doing that than fixing all of the wrong ones SONAR has "helpfully" put in for me. The guide tracks cut out a LOT of unwanted track bleed and DRAMATICALLY help the detection algorithm.
 
If you need timing from something like a hi-hat or an overhead mic or something, honestly, save yourself the headache and manually put transients in. It'll be about as much work doing that as fixing SONAR's mistakes and you'll likely do a better job at it.
 
A couple of good examples from my band:
 
Against The Wind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fx1qowWvNs
 
Digital Lies (Extended mix, where you can really hear the drums locked in with the sequences): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T0mssdwOw
 
Good luck! 
2016/03/19 14:32:15
John T
Ah, that's a great idea that gated guide track thing.
2016/03/19 14:37:19
Lord Tim
Yeah, the wrongly placed transients were driving me insane! I was scrambling around trying all kinds of stuff when it dawned on me that it all worked fine on material with clean hits (ie: NOT real drums) so I tried the gating thing out and it REALLY helped.
 
I'd absolutely love it if it was built into the Audiosnap palette so you could just do it all in one go. It's already unnecessarily complex as it is without having to do intermediate steps just so it detects properly. 
 
That all said, it's an absolutely fantastic tool though, and I'm very grateful we have it available!
2016/03/19 14:49:13
Sanderxpander
Great tips, thanks. It's amazing how bad the transient detection is.
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