Anderton
Go use a different program. Please.
 

Big +1 to that!!!
 

Silver has heated the air so even nice people in fact started to defend something there is no reason to defend...
 
VST specification say nothing about how MIDI output from plug-in should be used.
The meaning of "Enable MIDI output" and its routing is up to Sonar. VST just say "Hey, I send C4 to you". I have not seen any way for VST to say "Hey, I send C4 to you, please send it too ALL MIDI tracks as an Input!". And that is Sonar default behavior as soon as VST can send something.
 
The reason is obvious: unlike with audio, Sonar has only one "MIDI bus", all possible sources of MIDI information are "mixed" there, fortunately also with the source marks from where the information comes, unfortunately without the possibility to create yet another "MIDI bus" nor "silence" particular source. Not only VST outputs are "leaking" into that bus, but also "Remote controls" including the Matrix view and under some conditions Control Surfaces input.
 
MIDI output from VST can have different intentional meanings. Most strait is MIDI FX, manipulating MIDI to produce another MIDI. Also potentially chaining synth, controlling something, etc. I think THE VERY LAST intention of some VST with MIDI output is broadcasting it to everywhere. Yet that is the ONLY option available in Sonar.
 
I doubt that "silent broadcasting" of everything producing MIDI is "by design". For example, Sonar is not enabling all MIDI inputs in Windows as soon as they appear.
 
Is the whole think a bit inconvenient? Yes, it is. Is that a show stopper? No, it is not. For sure it is not worse all these discussions...

azslow3
Silver has heated the air so even nice people in fact started to defend something there is no reason to defend...
 
VST specification say nothing about how MIDI output from plug-in should be used.
The meaning of "Enable MIDI output" and its routing is up to Sonar. VST just say "Hey, I send C4 to you". I have not seen any way for VST to say "Hey, I send C4 to you, please send it too ALL MIDI tracks as an Input!". And that is Sonar default behavior as soon as VST can send something.
 
The reason is obvious: unlike with audio, Sonar has only one "MIDI bus", all possible sources of MIDI information are "mixed" there, fortunately also with the source marks from where the information comes, unfortunately without the possibility to create yet another "MIDI bus" nor "silence" particular source. Not only VST outputs are "leaking" into that bus, but also "Remote controls" including the Matrix view and under some conditions Control Surfaces input.
 
MIDI output from VST can have different intentional meanings. Most strait is MIDI FX, manipulating MIDI to produce another MIDI. Also potentially chaining synth, controlling something, etc. I think THE VERY LAST intention of some VST with MIDI output is broadcasting it to everywhere. Yet that is the ONLY option available in Sonar.
 
I doubt that "silent broadcasting" of everything producing MIDI is "by design". For example, Sonar is not enabling all MIDI inputs in Windows as soon as they appear.
 
Is the whole think a bit inconvenient? Yes, it is. Is that a show stopper? No, it is not. For sure it is not worse all these discussions...

 
understood.  so what you are saying is that if this BUG gets resolved, then I don't even need to worry about MIDI out:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542635
 
 
 

SilverBlueMedallionOK, so if the the action between loading the synth and the dialog prompt sends a flag to enable that option, which overrides whatever you have set in the defaults, then maybe that checkmark should be removed from the default prompt where you can set it to never ask again, no?

 
No, because you still don't understand that with MIDI out you don't set the default, the synth tells SONAR it has a MIDI out to that it can be enabled automatically without having to register the plug-in as a synth first (devices other than synths can generate MIDI out). As a design decision (I promise I'm not going to say that a 4,512th time), Cakewalk has decided to enable MIDI out when SONAR is told this option exists upon launch.  The checkbox is there so you can override the default after inserting the instrument. You may not like the design decision, which also for the 4,512th time I will say requires a feature request, but it is NOT A BUG. Hopefully we're clear on that.
 
As Noel said in the linked piece on VST3 implementation (which I assume you didn't read), "VST plugins that support VST MIDI out are directly supported without needing to register them as a synth first. A MIDI out port is enabled automatically when a VST plugin supports MIDI output."
 

If you have it set to never ask again and have "Enable MIDI Out" unchecked, you might think that it will work like every other check mark in that dialog box, no?

 
No. The other check boxes relate solely to SONAR. The VST3 spec doesn't require or even suggest instruments include SONAR-specific definitions for things like whether you want a simple instrument track, how many outputs you want enabled, etc. The MIDI Out section is separate from those parameters for a reason.

Where in the documentation does it clearly state that the setting for this may not stick?

 
I don't know if it does or doesn't. I searched cakewalk sonar synth "MIDI out" VST3 preferences and found the VST3 implementation document.
 

also, do you care to address this "bug"? - http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542635

 
No, but I will because I classify it as a dumb labeling choice, not a "bug" in the conventional sense of the word. It does not yield an unexpected result; it always yields the expected result (i.e., choosing Omni mode), but the result isn't labeled properly. It should say "Omni" (which admittedly the drop-down shows as soon as you select a track, enable record, etc.). That is different from "All Inputs" because you can specify all of a specific channel from all inputs whereas "Omni" really is omni. The only justification I can see for why it was called "None" is when I open a project, if a MIDI track says "None" it means nothing has been assigned yet. I think "None" should be changed to "Omni" but given that the drop-down menu tells you that, I don't get all weird about it.
 
If I don't want to record data on a track, I don't record-enable it. Most people understand this concept. In fact for MIDI or audio tracks, I always do global record disable just in case, and record-enable the track I do want to record. I voted for the feature request for a "Record Exclusive" button which if implemented, would allow for recording on only one track at a time. 
 
As to triggering specific instruments, I don't use simple instrument tracks because they're too simple for my needs; I want separate MIDI and audio tracks for a variety of reasons. One of them is regardless if all the instruments are set to the same controller, the only one that will sound is the one with a selected MIDI track.
 

SilverBlueMedallion

azslow3
Silver has heated the air so even nice people in fact started to defend something there is no reason to defend...
 
VST specification say nothing about how MIDI output from plug-in should be used.
The meaning of "Enable MIDI output" and its routing is up to Sonar. VST just say "Hey, I send C4 to you". I have not seen any way for VST to say "Hey, I send C4 to you, please send it too ALL MIDI tracks as an Input!". And that is Sonar default behavior as soon as VST can send something [snip].

 
understood.  so what you are saying is that if this BUG gets resolved, then I don't even need to worry about MIDI out:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542635

 
He can clarify, but I believe he's referring to the "Omni" saying "None" issue you brought up. Registering/not registering a plug-in is not something that's conveyed over MIDI as far as I know, although if anyone does, it would be azslow3.
 

Anderton

SilverBlueMedallionOK, so if the the action between loading the synth and the dialog prompt sends a flag to enable that option, which overrides whatever you have set in the defaults, then maybe that checkmark should be removed from the default prompt where you can set it to never ask again, no?

 
No, because you still don't understand that with MIDI out you don't set the default, the synth tells SONAR it has a MIDI out to that it can be enabled automatically without having to register the plug-in as a synth first (devices other than synths can generate MIDI out). As a design decision (I promise I'm not going to say that a 4,512th time), Cakewalk has decided to enable MIDI out when SONAR is told this option exists upon launch.  The checkbox is there so you can override the default after inserting the instrument. You may not like the design decision, which also for the 4,512th time I will say requires a feature request, but it is NOT A BUG. Hopefully we're clear on that.
 
As Noel said in the linked piece on VST3 implementation (which I assume you didn't read), "VST plugins that support VST MIDI out are directly supported without needing to register them as a synth first. A MIDI out port is enabled automatically when a VST plugin supports MIDI output."
 

If you have it set to never ask again and have "Enable MIDI Out" unchecked, you might think that it will work like every other check mark in that dialog box, no?

 
No. The other check boxes relate solely to SONAR. The VST3 spec doesn't require or even suggest instruments include SONAR-specific definitions for things like whether you want a simple instrument track, how many outputs you want enabled, etc. The MIDI Out section is separate from those parameters for a reason.

Where in the documentation does it clearly state that the setting for this may not stick?

 
I don't know if it does or doesn't. I searched cakewalk sonar synth "MIDI out" VST3 preferences and found the VST3 implementation document.
 

also, do you care to address this "bug"? - http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542635

 
No, but I will because I classify it as a dumb labeling choice, not a "bug" in the conventional sense of the word. It does not yield an unexpected result; it always yields the expected result (i.e., choosing Omni mode), but the result isn't labeled properly. It should say "Omni" (which admittedly the drop-down shows as soon as you select a track, enable record, etc.). That is different from "All Inputs" because you can specify all of a specific channel from all inputs whereas "Omni" really is omni. The only justification I can see for why it was called "None" is when I open a project, if a MIDI track says "None" it means nothing has been assigned yet. I think "None" should be changed to "Omni" but given that the drop-down menu tells you that, I don't get all weird about it.
 
If I don't want to record data on a track, I don't record-enable it. Most people understand this concept. In fact for MIDI or audio tracks, I always do global record disable just in case, and record-enable the track I do want to record. I voted for the feature request for a "Record Exclusive" button which if implemented, would allow for recording on only one track at a time. 
 
As to triggering specific instruments, I don't use simple instrument tracks because they're too simple for my needs; I want separate MIDI and audio tracks for a variety of reasons. One of them is regardless if all the instruments are set to the same controller, the only one that will sound is the one with a selected MIDI track.
 

 
ok just saw this.  Thing is, my track wasn't armed for recording and STILL is effected by other synth outputs!  random CC 7 stuff makes it to the synth on that track.  Mind you, it is NOT recorded... you don't see it in PRV, but it DOES effect the synth.   I don't know how.

Also, maybe there should be an option for "NONE".   

Maybe we can all agree that these are not bugs but incredibly inconvenient and confusing design decisions?

we have 2 posts, and I think i read one without the other, hence it looks like I was not reading what you were saying Anderton.

either way, I will post the problems here as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9z1Lr2P5rQ

Let's have a reality check.
 
The behavior of the Synth Options dialog in the Synth Rack as reported by the OP has existed since at least SONAR 8.5.  Since SONAR provides 2 fully functional methods of disabling a VSTi's MIDI out as demonstrated in the OP's videos, the issue will probably be categorized by the Bakers (or any rational development team for that matter) as Minor or Trivial and fall to the bottom of any development queue.  So, the likelihood of the Synth Rack dialog MIDI out issue ever being addressed is somewhere between slim and none.
 
With that said, there is a choice.  Either use SONAR for MIDI work and accept the current functionality or use another DAW for MIDI work.
 
Someone who frequents the Studio One and Reaper forums has an excellent philosophy when users start complaining about missing features:  Select software based on its current functionality, because the future functionality you want may never be implemented and you will be constantly disappointed.  Future functionality also includes fixing long standing defects or changing design decisions that the user may not like.
 
Hope this helps someone,
-- Ron

Anderton

SilverBlueMedallion

azslow3
Silver has heated the air so even nice people in fact started to defend something there is no reason to defend...
 
VST specification say nothing about how MIDI output from plug-in should be used.
The meaning of "Enable MIDI output" and its routing is up to Sonar. VST just say "Hey, I send C4 to you". I have not seen any way for VST to say "Hey, I send C4 to you, please send it too ALL MIDI tracks as an Input!". And that is Sonar default behavior as soon as VST can send something [snip].

 
understood.  so what you are saying is that if this BUG gets resolved, then I don't even need to worry about MIDI out:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542635

 
He can clarify, but I believe he's referring to the "Omni" saying "None" issue you brought up. Registering/not registering a plug-in is not something that's conveyed over MIDI as far as I know, although if anyone does, it would be azslow3.

Silver is trolling... is some posts he has almost confirmed that explicitly.
He is using primary 2 real inconsistencies/bugs plus own observation of something as the ground for the conversations.
 
1) "Enable MIDI output" in insert plug-in dialog. I do not know what it technically really means for VST3, I have written only VST2 which process MIDI. But in all cases, there is THE SECOND (may be the only) effect from it: the MIDI output is used as Sonar MIDI INPUT! It is up to Sonar how to use Input/Outputs from VST, so VST3 specification can not be used as the reference for any behavior. I repeat, it CAN be that the flag also influence Sonar<->VST3 dialog. But ignoring the user wish to NOT enable the MIDI output as Omni input and NOT ask again, is at least misleading since all other options in the dialog are respected. That can not be forced by VST3 specification (as explained before), that can not be explained by "most users wish", since if the flag is respected when it is changed by user (can be "on" by default, but stay "off" once set so explicitly), all users will be happy. Sonar is NOT re-enabling other things "silently and automagically" in general (f.e. Audio/MIDI inputs), so that can not be "by design" either.
 
The workaround is to uncheck the flag every time a synth is inserted. The result is the same. No side effects. Two clicks per synth more (compare with the number of "clicks" to play the synth.... so negligible). It is EASY to check the project has no unwanted output by just looking at all available MIDI inputs for a track, one click.
 
So inconvenient, misleading, error prone, but it is not an important issue.
 
2) "None is Omni", so there is no "None" for MIDI. A bug, at least in naming. Inconvenient, misleading, error prone.
 
That is relevant in case of INTENTIONAL use of VST MIDI outputs only. So when the "Input echo" is permanently ON, to route VST MIDI output to some synth MIDI input during playback. The problem is escalated by Sonar itself, once it detects something wrong with MIDI routing (sometimes real, sometimes by mistake) it silently (!) and sometimes invisibly till project reload (!) reset MIDI inputs to "None", which is "Omni"... and so it makes the problem (like loops) worse instead of avoid them, up to Sonar crash.
 
The workaround is to have external "silent" MIDI input, silent Synth with MIDI output, use  specific MIDI channels. All that HAS SIDE EFFECTS. Because of "silent reseting to OMNI", such projects are hard to move between systems, they can be corrupted by attached/detached controllers, newly inserted VSTs, etc.
 
So, this problem is important for special use cases. Sonar is not supporting MIDI FX in VST form explicitly and has basic MIDI routing. So using such features, while possible, should be perceived as A WORKAROUND by itself. I mean, when using it, the user can expect they are not working good and use the software explicitly made for that for fluent experience.
 
 
So, why I write that OP is trolling?
a) he refused to specify his system configuration, even on explicit questions. It can be correlated with almost all observations published by OP in several threads
 
b) he is not specifying what he really wants to do, in different thread and in different posts, he claim mutual exclusive wishes, depending on response from other. F.e. in one thread he claims using VST MIDI outputs intentionally, since (2) is problematic in this (and only in this) case. In other he wants disable MIDI outputs with "do not ask again", so effectively avoiding VST MIDI output by default
 
c) he brings "Synth parameter not saved" observation into MIDI related threads. It CAN BE MIDI related, but all attempts to check that ends with "Wrong. That is 100% not this". If he is sure that is NOT MIDI related, why mention that in MIDI related threads?
 
d) the tone of most posts is provoking.
 
Blocked. Forgotten.