pwalpwal
i think the "deeper" you use sonar the more likely weirdness will start happening...

My experience exactly. Largest project to date had 68 tracks with huge amounts of plugins, and tempo changes. However, I still completed the 12 track album without any data loss.

Anderton
"Time to move on" hopefully includes you, too. 

Andertoned again. Nice to see the forums anyway without posts being deleted, accusations and narrative changed. Perhaps we can finally get back to being polite to each other and maybe finally sensible two way discussions can happen before it is all over without takeovers. I hope. Moving on then.

MagicMike

pwalpwal
i think the "deeper" you use sonar the more likely weirdness will start happening...

My experience exactly. Largest project to date had 68 tracks with huge amounts of plugins, and tempo changes. However, I still completed the 12 track album without any data loss.

It's almost as if there are two sides to Sonar. You have its well behaved, cooperative attitude that you get when starting projects and keeping them relatively lightweight. Who doesn't love that Sonar. And then there's the cranky, careless, downright bizarre Sonar that shows its face when you give it too much to do. This has almost created a schism of sorts on the forums whenever the topic of Sonar's reliability comes up. There are those whose projects usually fall into the first camp, who might never see any of the really weird stuff and have a tendency to believe that the problems others are facing are because of hardware or "user error." And there are those like me who fall into the second camp. Those of us who have major problems have sometimes been made to feel like we either have something seriously wrong with our workflow, or that we're using the program in a way that it wasn't meant to be used. Or worst of all, that we're just troublemakers. I understand that people who fall into the first camp and experience no problems with Sonar might not relate to the more serious complaints and even feel irritated by them. But that doesn't mean they don't exist. Sonar should be reliable for all sizes of projects, but that hasn't been the experience of many. 
 
 

sharke

chuckebaby

sharke

deswind
Better the bugs you know than the ones yet to be encountered on another DAW.
I love Sonar and all its bugs.

Well, there are bugs and there are bugs. The kind of bugs that are just an annoyance and which can be worked around, I'll put up with those. Especially when I know there's a possibility of them getting fixed in the future (even though Sonar has a ton of those bugs which never got fixed despite being reported for years). On the other hand, there are the kind of catastrophic bugs which cause you to lose work, and which have no convenient workaround. Sonar has a few of those as well, and they'll never be fixed. 

Sharke... come on now be real. If Sonar had that many bugs you would have been gone a long time ago. Matter of fact, you wouldn't be here right now. You'd be using that new "90% bug free" DAW of yours that you purchased with a cross grade offer.
 
Not everyone inserts 100 tracks in to their projects.
As a matter of fact, im guessing most of us here (75%) are amateur, hobbyists with about 10 - 40 tracks per project.
Sonar had many little quirks and it also had some long standing bugs But if it were really that bad with "catastrophic bugs" You would have been gone long ago and I would have been right behind you. We both would have been buying new DAW's.
 
Problem solving and trouble tracking (you and I both know very well) can have multiple factors. I might see a bug that you never will because of:
1-  Different hardware, Control surface device
2- I may never use that function the same way you do.
3- I may have a plug in you do not.
 

Sonar does have that many bugs, and I thought about jumping ship on a regular basis. I stuck at it though, mainly because a) I really like the workflow of Sonar (when you forget about these issues) and b) I lived in hope that these issues would one day get fixed. And that was the frustrating thing about beta testing. My testing account is full of problems that were never fixed because they were so weird that I couldn't formulate recipes for them. I'd send off a project and would hear back "we're not seeing this at our end" or whatever. The issue with the Quadcurve boosting random bands (reported by others) was a classic example, as is the ongoing issue with some plugins losing their settings. There is a ton of other weird stuff I see on a regular basis but could never formulate recipes for, like for instance sometimes I'll move a clip and when I release the mouse button, it jumps to another position. And a huge number of problems with automation lanes (including them going missing) which caused me intense frustration, ruined entire nights of creativity and caused me to lose work.  And other things which didn't cause crashes or loss of work but which caused serious problems nonetheless, like automation going out of sync with the playhead during looping, things like that. There were loads of stupid bugs which were reported thoroughly by users for years but which never got fixed. Things that really should have been fixed years ago. The MIDI crosstalk problems are such that I have seen projects get to the point where simply pressing one track's mute button can cause a kick drum to sound in a completely unrelated drum VSTi on another track. 
 
You're actually making my point for me in some respects. No, not everyone works with large, complex projects. But a DAW like Sonar should be able to handle them without issues, and if it doesn't then the DAW is problematic, period - regardless of how many people are having a good experience with smaller projects. 
 
Hardware has nothing to do with any of the issues which plagued me, and even if it did, why should it? There has always been a tendency on the Sonar forum to dismiss people's problems as being due to a particular hardware configuration that Sonar could not be blamed for, and I've even heard people cite hardware as a possibility for bugs that clearly had nothing whatsoever to do with hardware. 

Sharke,
I do not really agree! I think there are a lot of bugs in any big and complex program. I have worked as software engineer for many years, so I have an idea of what I am talking about. So just dream of that bugless DAW, choose whichever you like and you will come to reality soon!
 
Also concerning hardware problems: I reported myself a bug with the 32-bit bridge and after some time we found out (together with Cakewalk and Focusrite) that it was a bug in the Focusrite driver.
 
But sure, you are right that the professionals may have more problems with bugs than amateurs like me, because they tease out more of the DAW. Nevertheless I think that many cases are very complex as a lot of components are involved: The DAW, Windows, drivers, the hardware, the firmware, plugins and other programs running at the same time. I tell you it is often not easy to find the culpable component, sometimes there is even more than one factor leading to the failure.
 

My posts are now being deleted, no surprises.
 
I'll edit and try again one more time in case it's the spam scanner.
 
Sharke already said there were two camps, you are clearly in the other camp.
 
I have to say all the DAW's I've been using over the last few years are FAR less buggy, and as already been said earlier look at the bug fixes that were coming out every month (it cannot be denied). The "there will always be bugs in software" defense is just so old now. Once you burst out of the Sonar bubble your eyes will open. Regardless it does not matter any more, it's over.

marled
 
Sharke,
I do not really agree! I think there are a lot of bugs in any big and complex program. I have worked as software engineer for many years, so I have an idea of what I am talking about. So just dream of that bugless DAW, choose whichever you like and you will come to reality soon!
 
Also concerning hardware problems: I reported myself a bug with the 32-bit bridge and after some time we found out (together with Cakewalk and Focusrite) that it was a bug in the Focusrite driver.
 
But sure, you are right that the professionals may have more problems with bugs than amateurs like me, because they tease out more of the DAW. Nevertheless I think that many cases are very complex as a lot of components are involved: The DAW, Windows, drivers, the hardware, the firmware, plugins and other programs running at the same time. I tell you it is often not easy to find the culpable component, sometimes there is even more than one factor leading to the failure.
 

That's somewhat of a straw man argument. Nobody here is claiming that any DAW is 'bug free,' and we're all well aware that bugs are inevitable in any large, complex program. But there are degrees of bugginess, and some bugs are more serious than others. I use a lot of large, complex apps. Does Sonar stand out as being particularly buggy in this grand scheme of things? Yes! Absolutely. For instance, I've used programs like Illustrator and Premiere extensively, and have worked up some pretty intensive projects with them. While I see the odd glitch and bug, it's nothing on the scale of Sonar. I could even say the same thing about Pro Tools, which I used before Sonar. The main reason why I ditched it was because it was 32 bit only back then and had performance problems with using a lot of synths and sample libraries. But other than that, when I had large complex projects going in Pro Tools I just didn't see the weirdness creep in that I see in Sonar. The meat and potatoes of the program - its GUI, editing and mixing functionality - worked almost flawlessly. Sonar has a lot of bugs which are not related to performance, or hardware, or the audio engine. And it's easy to blame a plugin too, only you then research the problem and find that people haven't been reporting it in other DAW's. 
 
I'm sorry but when plugins are loaded without their settings (when the same plugin works fine in other DAW's), or you're seeing automation envelopes recorded in real time on the screen which disappear into thin air when you stop the transport, or turning a ProChannel on or off visibly changes the settings of a plugin hosted within that ProChannel, you can't blame hardware. It's way too easy, when discussing DAW's, to wave problems away with a "well, they're complex beasts and have a lot of factors." It's the job of the developer to harness that complexity and turn it into something reliable and user friendly. 

At the moment there are a lot of potholes in the roads around here. If I turned up to my Local Government and asked them to fix them, if their response is "there's will always be holes in the roads" then I will begin to think that things will never be repaired.
 
If I took a photo of a pothole and they said they can't see the hole, I then go back again and supply satnav coordinates, steps on how to get there, and even a video... and then they ignore me.. I would not be too happy with them.
 
If on the other hand the local govt published a public list of potholes to be fixed, and I could see they are actually being prioritized and fixed over a period of time... even if it is very slowly, and I could actively see there are less and less potholes .... I would be much happier. If they didn't do this, and I decided to start my own list for them to look and they failed to acknowledge me, I would not be too happy either.
 
If somebody said to me "there are not many pot holes" I'd simply point them to the list. If he's right then he's right, if I am right I can perhaps explain that the reason why he does not see the holes is because he's not driving down certain roads and seeing them.

OK breaking up this post since apparently the list is too long for one post.  Again, not sure if SONAR is any worse than any other DAW, but it gives some perspective on why some people may have had issues that had nothing to do with plug-ins or faulty setups.  14 of these bugs caused outright crashes.
 
Here are the bugs reported BY Cakewalk in 2017 part 1:
Control Bar
Selection Module no longer selects nothing in some situations
Selection Module fails to update as expected in some cases
Snap setting "Measure" not working When Snap Module set to Small
Duplicate
Creating Repetitions of SIT with Duplicate Track yields unexpected results
Undoing a Duplicate Track did not undo completely in some situations
Duplicate Track no longer causes external MIDI inputs to transpose unexpectedly
Touch
Touching Time Ruler no longer unexpectedly selects all Tracks
Double Tap with Touch now works as expected to reset a control
Selecting tracks is now possible with Touch
Selecting a time range on ruler in TV with Touch now works as expected
Track View
CTRL Drag Copy always pastes automation
Clicking a Bus Name should set it to be focused
Inconsistent composite clip display when take lanes are open
Split Tool didn't always split grouped clips in take lanes
Split Tool didn't create desired selection groups
Transport jumps to end of clip after punch in recording
Parameter values in tooltip while dragging multiple envelope nodes works more predictably
Start Screen
Save dialog is sometimes captured in project thumbnails
Snap/Aim Assist does not show in TV Bus Pane
SONAR no longer requires project name dialog when creating project from Start Screen
Stability
Resolved a crash that could occur when incorrectly trying to map a VST2 to VST3 plug-in
Surface Dial
Improved horizontal scrolling in Staff View
Improved scrolling in Step Sequencer
Surface Dial failed to zoom properly in some views
MISC
Nudge in the Piano Roll view could cause notes to disappear unexpectedly in some situations (FIXED AFTER EARLY ACCESS)
Edit Filters showed incorrect parameter name after renaming an FX Chain or one of its controls
FX Chains no longer appear available in Recent FX List within FX Chain
Recent FX list now works in Clip FX Bin
Recent FX list now works FX Chains
Replace Synth now works properly from the Synth Rack menu when picking a recent synth
Loop Construction View failed to scroll with wheel
TH3 Full version could incorrectly assign automation or FX Chain parameters when upgrading from TH3 Cakewalk
Duplicate (Clone) Track
All references to Clone Track have now been changed to Duplicate Track
Duplicated simple instrument tracks will now create a new instance of the synth
Duplicating Split Instrument Tracks is now possible! When you have the MIDI track and Audio track of a split pair both selected,
clicking the Duplicate button will now create a new pair connected to a new synth instance. Duplicating a single MIDI or Audio track
will continue to route to the same connected synth
Duplicated tracks with plug-ins set to use tempo sync now works as expected
Duplicating instrument tracks previously caused issues in projects with folders
Duplicated tracks with lanes did not indicate lanes until expanded
Duplicated tracks previously did not match the original tracks height
ProChannel enable Post FX Rack button is now copied when duplicating a track
Track gain is now copied when duplicating a track
Duplicating a track within a folder could create a new track outside of the folder
Duplicated tracks now respect the “Follow Track Pan setting
Duplicated Track now remember if the inline Piano Roll is selected
Duplicated tracks previously did not set the Read Automation button state correctly
Start Screen
Clicking the Discover tab banner previously opened the Start Screen in a browser
Text for “Demo Projects” in the Start Screen is no longer cut off in some languages
Touch
Using touch to navigate, it was possible to move the timeline before measure 1
Tap to set NowTime in the Track view now works properly with Touch
Miscellaneous
Track Control Manager previously listed Sends as AUX
The Open File dialog did not display some Cakewalk file types when set to “All Cakewalk” Projects, Templates, and Bundles will now
all display with this selected
VST2 plug-ins without GUIs can now be scanned and loaded in SONAR
General
Paste Special did not respect Destination Track in some situations during Paste
Creating FX Chains previously not add parameters to a control unless it was added twice
Stability
Dithering to 24-bit when exporting FLAC previously could cause unexpected crackles in the exported file
Resolved an issue where SONAR may crash on OMF Export
Track View
Drag reordering a bus would was off by 1 when moved to a new position
Editing minimized Track View clips was previously difficult to slip-edit/crop on the right edge.
Piano Roll View
The Transform Tool no longer bounces clips together when doing velocity changes
The Transform button now reflects Hard or Soft mode in the button when switching
The Transform Tool’s Mask mode will now respond to Hard and Soft mode when Drawing through the Transform box
Transform Tool now responds correctly when “Show Velocity on Selected Notes Only” is selected
Transform Tool did not display preview correctly in certain conditions
General
Using SONAR with a 64-sample buffer size could cause issues when 64-bit Double Precision was enabled. This was discovered using the
Adaptive Limiter but could affect any plug-in.
Track View, Track View In-line Piano Roll, and Piano Roll View now have consistent behavior when thinning grid lines during zooming
in and out
Resolved a possible crash when using two-finger scrolling on the track pad
Editing operations in large projects are now 10x faster. This affects Split, Move, Undo, Redo, and Ripple Editing
Zooming and scrolling in projects with many clips and crossfades is now more responsive
AudioSnap
Using AudioSnap to Split Beats could previously cause SONAR to become unresponsive when trying to display all the split clips
Memory usage with AudioSnap has been reduced by 75% when using it to Split Beats without editing the transient markers
Browser

To me that sounds too simple what you guys are saying. I don't want to negate what you say, there are surely bugs, but I doubt that all of them are Sonar bugs. So a developer must first find out what is the cause for what a bug report says. And first you must isolate the problem and in many cases that is fairly difficult. You can not simply say if a plugin runs in one DAW and not in another that it's the 2nd DAWS failure, it is not that simple!
And also concerning priorities in a software product: You really can imagine if you have read different threads in a forum how different the wishes and priorities of DAW users are, because they all use it in other contexts and with other workflows.

2017 bugs part II
Dragging plug-ins from the Plug-in Browser would previously collapses folders after inserting the plug-in into the project
Ripple Editing
MIDI events will now be shortened or lengthened when Ripple Editing if the end of a note is selected or the selection is in the
middle of a note. This prevents notes from getting deleted or truncated unexpectedly in some situations during a ripple edit
MIDI clips are no longer split in some situations. This is to help preserve clips that contain long notes.
Snap Module
Disabling Snap previously created problems with showing triplets and dotted settings, These buttons will now stay lit to better
indicate what Grid Lines are being displayed when Snap is Off
Snap settings could previously become changed unexpectedly if they were altered when Snap was Off
The Control Bar’s Smart Grid option is no longer disabled on cancel out of the menu
Staff View
Arrow keys now change track selection in the Track Pane of the Staff View
Step Sequencer
Click + Dragging in Step Sequencer could cause SONAR UI to stop updating momentarily until mouse up
Track View
Aim Assist now feels more responsive and moves smoothly in the Track View
Resolved an issue where Copy & Paste with lanes closed could result in overlaps on the same lane
Track View Grid wouldn’t update after changing the snap settings
Track View wouldn’t always follow (non-smart) grid line settings in the Snap Control Bar module
The Time Ruler no longer shows additional ticks when set to Smart Grid.This now displays the only the Beat markers.
The Track View In-line Piano Roll didn’t follow snap setting in some situations
General
Start Screen didn’t have a valid digital signature in SONAR 2017.06 EA
Resolved an issue where Youtube Publisher would not log in to Youtube
Resolved an issue with excluded Plug-ins showing up in plug-in list
Assigning a MIDI Remote Control will now save with project
Using Remote Control to activate a send would appear activated but not function
Virtual Controller display mode button could overlap octave display on some systems
Virtual Controller no longer blocks shortcuts for Record / Delete / Views
MultiDock corner were cut off when scaling DPI settings in windows
Transparency for the Control Bar Now Slider now displays properly when creating a custom theme
Create a new project from the start screen using Ctrl+N
Deprecated the Read Me from installer and README.RTF from Help Menu. Similar topics will now be shared in the Knowledge Base going
forward:
Stability
SONAR could crash using the RealTek ASIO HD as my Playback Timing Master
Resolved a possible crash when replacing modules in the MixStip or Prochannel
Step sequencer "New Value Type" parameter selection could cause SONAR to appear hung
Track View
The hit zones for some controls could get misaligned causing track number selection to not work as expected
Creating automation for the ProChannel on a Bus could inadvertently turn on other Buses ProChannel modules
Resolved a situation where take lanes could become uneditable or corrupted
Splitting clips on take lanes could fail under certain conditions
Track with automation could get automatically deselected after Ripple Editing a selection
Unfreezing a track after ripple editing could remove data on the track
Ripple Edit Selection could cause unexpected cropping on MIDI tracks
Resolved an issue when Ripple Pasting with single track could pastes to the wrong track
Drag and dropping a clip to an empty lane could drops clip the wrong lane
Undo properly restores Markers after using Process | Slide
Muted Region FX clips now display like other muted clips
Folder preview highlighting no longer behaves unexpectedly after performing a Select All (Ctrl+A)
Piano Roll View
Resolved an issue when adjusting Velocity could cause stuck notes
Smart Swipe + Scrolling of controls in the Piano Roll view has been improved
General
Enhanced Touch support for zooming, scrolling and resizing of Track / Piano Roll view
Enhanced Touch support for resizing MultiDock, Browser, and Inspector in the Skylight interface
New installs of SONAR will now have real-time Dithering turned Off by default. If you are using the real-time dithering in the
Adaptive Limiter, we recommend turning this setting off in Preferences | Playback and Recording
Using the FX Assignable Controls for some VST3 audio plugins could previously change the wrong parameter
Track View
Clicking between two marks above the timeline will now create a timeline selection between both markers
The Bus pane Expand / Collapse button has an updated look to match the PRV Controller pane Expand / Collapse button
Clip separations are now easier to see in Folder tracks
Piano Roll View
Resolved an issue where the PRV / Keys and Grid could become misaligned
Vertical Nudge no longer allows for notes in the PRV to be moved to a different track unexpectedly
PRV | View | Show Multiple Lanes setting is now remembered on project save and reload
Resolved a possible crash when drawing in the Controller pane on non english installs of SONAR
Ad Hoc Filter from Selection: Easily add selected tracks in the Piano Roll to be Filtered by Right-Clicking the selected track(s) and
selecting “Add Selected Tracks to Filter”
Create Filter from Selection: Quickly create a filter now from selected tracks by Right-Clicking the selected track(s) and selecting
“New Filter from Selection”
New track selection options in Track pane for Selecting All Track, Clearing Track Selection, and Inverting Track Selection by Right-
Clicking the track number.
Tracks menu is back with commands for Select All Tracks, Clear Track Selection, Invert Track Selection, and Focus Previous/Next
Track.
The Single lane Controller pane now supports scrolling for tracks that have more controller types than can be displayed
The Transform tool now features tooltips for better usability
Auto Track Zoom in the TV no longer interferes with selection in Track Pane
Track pane Filter is no longer disabled when enabling Show Audio Tracks
Enabling Show Audio Tracks with a Filter enabled, previously didn’t always show the audio tracks contained in the Filter properly
Controller type label draw correctly now when resizing to very small dimensions
Tracks could become hidden from the Track pane when collapsing a folder in the Track view
Aim Assist is now always cleared when moving the mouse outside of the view
Shift + C to adjust the Control Bar height is no longer grabbed to show / hide Controller pane
Resolved an issue where some FIlter menu items could be unintentionally grayed out
Using the Up / Down arrow keys in the Track Pane to focus tracks, will now wrap around like it does in the TV
Transform Tool no longer changes selection size unexpectedly when using it with Auto-Focus
Keyboard Shortcuts
New Keyboard Shortcuts in Preferences for Piano Roll view. Now includes Auto Lock On/Off, Filter On/Off, Select All Tracks, Clear
Track Selection, Invert Track Selection, and Focus Previous/Next Track.
Screensets are now available in the Global Bindings list in Keyboard Shortcuts
Miscellaneous Fixes & Enhancements
Artist, Professional, Platinum
Clicking a track name will now set track focus
Fixed a warning message that was cut off in MIDI > Playback and Recording for German
Updated PRV Solo button tooltip for Japanese
In some languages the Help Module window would display with a white background and no text
3rd Party
TH3 has been updated in the Boutique suite for Platinum as well as the core installers for Professional and Artist. This update
supports changes the plug-in locking for SONAR and prevents the plug-in from going into demo mode for new versions of SONAR
Ultra Analog Session 2 has been updated in the Platinum Instruments Collection. It includes various fixes for stability
Melodyne | Follow Host Tempo command now works properly
Softube Console 1 UI now updates to indicate the new track number after a track above it is deleted
Possible Issues
There have been some scattered reports of the following:
A track with automation is automatically deselected after performing a Ripple Edit Selection drag. Workaround: Re-select the track.