Sharke, my comments were addressed at the examples alex posted. I was not disnissing every complaint about sonar bugs, but specifically the ones posted because every sample i clicked in was literally that.

I think a lot of what we are seeing and have seen in these forums are facts last and populism first, this is now an international problem in my view. Heck a President was elected on it, a country voted to leave the EU on it as well.
 
Sonar here is treated more like a person by many here, so much so if somebody states flaws in it... or gives it bad press... some people rush to defend it, EVEN when nobody is developing it any more. It's unusual for some here to say... "you know what, we did something wrong, how can we do it right next time?" or "how do we improve this?". Didn't really see that attitude much with the Bakers, it happened occasionally like all things. Also there is a lot of mimicry as is human nature, when you look at "me too" posts it's plain to see. Everybody wants to belong to a group, those that don't really belong to any group are outcasts (a bit like me).

In summary I believe the downfall was:
1) Just not looking at the big wide world market and what is going on.
2) Almost non existent marketing.
3) Sticking with the old user base rather than attempting to broaden horizons elsewhere and get new customers.
4) Inability to treat and log bugs, and provide appropriate feedback to customers.
5) Inability to have frank discussions in these very forums without a witch hunt, which was often calculated thing in my viewpoint. Self promoters and a lot of actual fictional propaganda took place in order to distract away from topics deemed dodgy. Mainly you're either with us or against us arguments would do the trick, or just plain simple finger pointing, or just labeling people.
6) These forums developing a reputation as being difficult outside here and within the DAW world. Phrases like "You've been cakewalked", "sonared" or "Andertoned" were not on common outside of here in my experience. There is a lot of "me too". It was almost the case you could say that the world is round, and if one "respected" person stated it was flat, you would get ten posters stating they agree with him - without a second thought. Some people even have their names in the Urban dictionary for these very reasons. Many people who have been here for ages simply have no idea they have not ventured outside of these forums much.
7) Did not collect enough revenue, further income streams could have been generated (as discussed on that Reddit thread by Craig), like selling plugins that were given away for free. I encourage everybody to have a read it really is enlightening.
 
The big success here was that these forums built up a certain fan base that was solid within it's walls. Unfortunately that was also part of it's downfall, it became a bit of a niche and you needed to be "accepted" by the fanbase to get along.
 
Anyway some people will find these comments too much to bare and will probably start throwing stuff at me just for saying all this, or start analyzing this in minute detail by cherry picking quotes perhaps adding their own observations (as though I am actually saying it when I am not), but I hope others can see I'm just being honest and in a little mourning myself, so now is the time to leave.. for now at least.
 
Anyway the Reddit thread is a great read, I only discovered it in the last few weeks and I noticed it's already been quoted here (I think).

sharke

stratman70
Well, I do not understand why the people that are trashing Sonar are here at all? Is it to convince folks like me and many others that we should MOVE away from Sonar. We shouldn't care about the DAW we like and use everyday because YOU have issues?  Why should that matter to me?
It doesn't because I DO NOT HAVE ISSUES WITH SONAR. 
 
There are so many here ( the majority by far) bummed that Sonar will no longer be developed and more importantly will they really have a way to reinstall the programs THEY WANT TO USE. See the key is they (being me and many others) want to use. 
 
If I had all the issues with Sonar that some keep on harping about and had already moved on to another daw I would NOT be here posting. 
Whats your point? Is it to tell us we are stupid or amateurs because we use this program but do not find it unbearable and cumbersome? 
We are idiots for not moving on to a new daw now or even before?
I see NO other reason for you folks to be here in this conversation. Oh wait, you spent $$$ and time on Sonar. Your entitled. Entitled to What?  To what? Most of us are worried about what is happening. You are just here to trash it. So?

You really need to stop taking things so personally and stop perceiving criticism of Sonar as criticism against those who use it. This kind of thing has always been a problem on the forum. Anyone who had serious issues with the program had to face a constant barrage of "it's your fault, not Sonar's," or "you seem to be here just to bash it." Interpreting criticism of Sonar as a personal attack against those who use it is, I'll admit, a new level of irrational. 
 
I don't know why you seem to feel that criticism of Sonar doesn't belong here. This is a free flowing discussion about the program and its future - there are going to be those who plan to use Sonar to the death, and those who feel like they should invest in another DAW. Both camps are free to give their reasons why. You're not going to see a discussion like this without the pros and cons of Sonar appearing as a side topic. Regardless of what you experience with your Sonar workflow, the program has some very real, tangible problems which are serious enough to cause loss of work, and anyone considering whether or not to use a completely unsupported DAW with no forthcoming bug fixes should take them into consideration. Regardless of whether or not you think talking about them is "trashing" the program. 

I don't take it personally. I was guessing at why you and others feel the need to come here and keep telling us how many bugs Sonar has? 
Do you think you or anyone else is telling us something we have not heard before on this forum?
Jeeezzz. I just do not get it............Sorry, I just don't.
 

stratman70
I don't take it personally. I was guessing at why you and others feel the need to come here and keep telling us how many bugs Sonar has? 
Do you think you or anyone else is telling us something we have not heard before on this forum?
Jeeezzz. I just do not get it............Sorry, I just don't.
 

I could not resist commenting on this though.
This is exactly what I mean.
Observe use of the words "You" "Others" and "Us".
Explains these forums pretty well and is not uncommon usage, no wonder newbies and the younger generation were put off.

stratman70

sharke

stratman70
Well, I do not understand why the people that are trashing Sonar are here at all? Is it to convince folks like me and many others that we should MOVE away from Sonar. We shouldn't care about the DAW we like and use everyday because YOU have issues?  Why should that matter to me?
It doesn't because I DO NOT HAVE ISSUES WITH SONAR. 
 
There are so many here ( the majority by far) bummed that Sonar will no longer be developed and more importantly will they really have a way to reinstall the programs THEY WANT TO USE. See the key is they (being me and many others) want to use. 
 
If I had all the issues with Sonar that some keep on harping about and had already moved on to another daw I would NOT be here posting. 
Whats your point? Is it to tell us we are stupid or amateurs because we use this program but do not find it unbearable and cumbersome? 
We are idiots for not moving on to a new daw now or even before?
I see NO other reason for you folks to be here in this conversation. Oh wait, you spent $$$ and time on Sonar. Your entitled. Entitled to What?  To what? Most of us are worried about what is happening. You are just here to trash it. So?

You really need to stop taking things so personally and stop perceiving criticism of Sonar as criticism against those who use it. This kind of thing has always been a problem on the forum. Anyone who had serious issues with the program had to face a constant barrage of "it's your fault, not Sonar's," or "you seem to be here just to bash it." Interpreting criticism of Sonar as a personal attack against those who use it is, I'll admit, a new level of irrational. 
 
I don't know why you seem to feel that criticism of Sonar doesn't belong here. This is a free flowing discussion about the program and its future - there are going to be those who plan to use Sonar to the death, and those who feel like they should invest in another DAW. Both camps are free to give their reasons why. You're not going to see a discussion like this without the pros and cons of Sonar appearing as a side topic. Regardless of what you experience with your Sonar workflow, the program has some very real, tangible problems which are serious enough to cause loss of work, and anyone considering whether or not to use a completely unsupported DAW with no forthcoming bug fixes should take them into consideration. Regardless of whether or not you think talking about them is "trashing" the program. 

I don't take it personally. I was guessing at why you and others feel the need to come here and keep telling us how many bugs Sonar has? 
Do you think you or anyone else is telling us something we have not heard before on this forum?
Jeeezzz. I just do not get it............Sorry, I just don't.
 

How about acting like an adult and recognizing the fact that my motive for making the comments that I have isn't purely to "rub people's noses in it," "call Sonar users stupid" or to "tell everyone how many bugs Sonar has for the sake of it" By that same logic, I could ask you why you feel the need to come here and shout down anyone who talks about Sonar's problems.

It's quite obvious that you're sensitive about Sonar to the point where it really bothers you that anyone would make an argument for abandoning it.

The bottom line is that you see no reason why discussions shouldn't be one sided and cherry picked. And that anyone who makes the "wrong" kind of comments has no right to take part.

You guys are out of control.

There is nothing more here happening except arguments.
This thread started out pretty good with good intentions. Even the occasional rant was justified.
But now 3 or 4 pages of trolling is enough for me because that's exactly what this has turned in to. Glorified trolling.
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their complaints but this is ridicules.
Alex you said you were done like 5 times but cant seem to get enough of getting under peoples skin.
This forum was originally started as a user support group. users helping other users.
This isn't users helping other users. This is "I'm using Cakewalks site as my public personal complaint soapbox".
 

chuckebaby
There is nothing more here happening except arguments.
This thread started out pretty good with good intentions. Even the occasional rant was justified.
But now 3 or 4 pages of trolling is enough for me because that's exactly what this has turned in to. Glorified trolling.
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their complaints but this is ridicules.
Alex you said you were done like 5 times but cant seem to get enough of getting under peoples skin.
This forum was originally started as a user support group. users helping other users.
This isn't users helping other users. This is "I'm using Cakewalks site as my public personal complaint soapbox".
 

Just to remind you, you've been posting quite a bit as well, however I have no complaints about it, nor will I start labelling you as an evil doer. That wouldn't be very nice. Also this is a discussion thread nobody is asking for help.

v v v v v v

CakeAlexSHere
Anyway some people will find these comments too much to bare and will probably start throwing stuff at me just for saying all this, or start analyzing this in minute detail by cherry picking quotes perhaps adding their own observations (as though I am actually saying it when I am not), but I hope others can see I'm just being honest and in a little mourning myself, so now is the time to leave.. for now at least.
 

StepD
 
You guys are out of control.

If the definition of 'out of control' is stating the facts and telling it like it is, then yes I would agree.

chuckebaby
There is nothing more here happening except arguments.
This thread started out pretty good with good intentions. Even the occasional rant was justified.
But now 3 or 4 pages of trolling is enough for me because that's exactly what this has turned in to. Glorified trolling.
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their complaints but this is ridicules.
Alex you said you were done like 5 times but cant seem to get enough of getting under peoples skin.
This forum was originally started as a user support group. users helping other users.
This isn't users helping other users. This is "I'm using Cakewalks site as my public personal complaint soapbox".
 

What exactly is "trolling" though? It seems to me that anytime someone is expressing an unpopular view on a forum, regardless of whether or not they're expressing it rationally, sooner or later they get called a troll. Personally, I think the word "troll" is grossly overused, and frequently misused. If someone is trolling, their sole motive for being here is to argue for the sake of it.
 
This is a public forum, and in any discussion there's some back and forth. Point, counterpoint. The topic, in general, is the end of Cakewalk, what it means for Sonar and what users are going to do going forward. My view, for example, is that Sonar has a lot of serious problems and that the most prudent way forward would be to switch DAW's to something that has ongoing development, a healthy user base and is even superior to Sonar in many ways. A perfectly reasonable view. Yet some here seem to think that this entire viewpoint is nothing more than a vehicle to attack and degrade them for wanting to stick with Sonar. This is where people's emotions intrude to the point of ridiculousness. And then what happens is, you get attacked for it, and so you respond, and are attacked back, and then you respond to that, and before you know it people are accusing you of posting obsessively (even though every one of your posts is in response to someone else's attack). And then you're a "troll." 
 
It seems to me that in one respect, there are two sides here: those who are happy to let anyone express their opinion in this free for all thread about Cakewalk, and those who believe that certain opinions "have no place here" and are a personal attack against them or insulting to Sonar or whatever other nonsense. For the record, I belong to the first camp. I'll continue to relate my experiences with Sonar and advise anyone who is on the fence about jumping ship to look for a new DAW.