sabvathayath
Я начал использовать Sonar c 2014 года, у меня есть все популярные DAW но Sonar я любил больше остальных. Вот буквально только что решил получить обновления (рассылки я отключил и об этой хуевой новости ничего не знал) захожу на сайт и охуеваю от того что Sonar все, пиздец! Охуенный подарок от ебаных Gibson на новый год! Рот их ебать!

Hahaha. Thank you Google translator!

julianochrisway
I was reading the discussion and conclusions taken that think Cakewalk closed because of the Sonar. Not Cakewalk has actually closed its operations indefinitely in the transition period that Gibson is going through (ie are at great risk and this has nothing to do with Cake).
 Gibson, a closed-capital company, will need to refinance the debt of 520
Million dollars. Today the company has a debt of securities of US $375 million due on August 1, 2018. An additional US $145 million in bank debt with initial maturity of June 23, 2018. I read it today and it's just facts.
 Closing Factory/Factory opening
Gibson set out to change one of its three factories to a more appropriate place with a new reality of the company. The Memphis factory in the U.S. will go to a smaller location and plan to sell the entire operation of the site.
 The company will remain in the current building between the next 18 to 24 months and it is estimated that the value of the sale of the operation rotates around $17 million of dollars.
 Gibson confirmed yesterday that he will not participate in the Namm 2018. That's right--
The case is very serious, the Gibson is cutting all current costs and needs to refinance its debt as stated above, and change its entire operation strategy. The focus of the company wants to direct its efforts enough on electronic products. Interfaces, headphones, monitors, among other things. This explains why Cakewalk has not yet been sold, in fact they shut down the company's activities indefinitely and still do not know what they will do with it. Probably either going to sell the Cake or change their strategy, I believe they end up selling yet in 2018 1 instead they shut down all operations, they need to urgently settle the debt issue.
 The sales of Gibson instruments mostly fall immensely, so Gibson had the "brilliant idea" of spending his money buying several companies, she was unable to define her market strategy within her investments and failed to prevent Bleeding from the fall of the instruments. The result is that she's losing control of everything, now she's had to make some tough decisions if she doesn't want to go down for good.
 So forget conspiracy theories. Cakewalk is closed for Gibson's problems and not on account of bugs. If bugs were something that prevented DAW sales, ProTools wouldn't even sell. Because in every project I do, I have bugs, very different from the Platinum Sonar. My latest project is a 28 track single with many plugins and samples on KONTATK.
 Anyway, I also believe that some important changes, in case Cake manages to get out of this situation would be important.
 Price and updates: Need a really cheap version or free not only for Mac as for PC, lost a lot of space for Reaper because of it.
 Really the Cake took a long time to launch the MAC version (although I don't use Apple products but I'm not dumb or blind, the company needs to get out of the comfort zone).
 There are actually some structures to be changed and updated in the DAW, such as the way the loops are made, in this regard the FL Studio is far ahead in the construction of loops, there are some strange bugs that loop the sonar to change the BPMs , this is a change of structure as well as the compatability with MIDI controllers. It has no updated preset of new Midi controllers like Artura Keylab Essential for example (which I bought recenemente) to use them to control the DAW. Very different from FL Studio and Live that are always up to date. Another issue that annoys me is that sometimes the loading time to open the program changes, this slightly irritates the scanning of plugins could be more like the FL Studio that works without harming what you are doing and the DAW opens very quickly. Aside from those issues I've highlighted, Sonar is wonderful for me.
 So that's it, I made this text about my vision of what happened to the company, putting facts on the table, without creating crazy theories.

1) Cakewalk didn't make any money. It lost money.
2) Mac version was abandoned and they just released a dogppile version so they could just say they kept their promises. It was a ridiculous idea from the start, would have been nice to have... But really really... Crazy. Costs are too high to develop for an unprofitable company. Not sure it could compete with logic either. Other DAW's also had Linux.
3) Sonar artist is the cutdown version. Granted not on Mac.
4) You should really read the Reddit thread I posted.

Regardless of Gibson's problems (which is a fair point) if Cakewalk was in a better place it would have been much easier to sell. At present it's unlikely, and regardless all the staff has left.

(FFS posting this again because spam scanner keeps deleting).

julianochrisway
So forget conspiracy theories. Cakewalk is closed for Gibson's problems and not on account of bugs. If bugs were something that prevented DAW sales, ProTools wouldn't even sell. Because in every project I do, I have bugs, very different from the Platinum Sonar. My latest project is a 28 track single with many plugins and samples on KONTATK.
 
So that's it, I made this text about my vision of what happened to the company, putting facts on the table, without creating crazy theories.

Hi Julian thanks for your rational discussion. Yeah the shutdown of Cakewalk was mainly to do with Gibson's focus change and of course our Company's profitability. It had zero to do with problems with the actual product. The evolution of SONAR was at its highest peak ever and we had some really amazing features and even more to come so its bittersweet that this happened at the peak. Regarding bugs, ALL software products have bugs and kid yourself not ALL the DAW's have similar or worse issues depending on where you look and how you use the software.
 
Bugs are a whole topic in itself that I may write a blog about. Some end users think that companies ignore bugs intentionally in favor of quick profits and shiny features. Nothing could be further from the truth. The main reason bugs exist are because there are some enormously complex and difficult to reproduce scenarios that prevent them being found by developers. We had certain bugs that only showed up for a tiny set of users on their systems only when using myriads of plugins. In such scenarios the time cost of identifying and fixing those bugs becomes huge (it can take a developer or qa team, weeks to even get to the problem let alone fix it). So its common for software companies prioritize more common bugs that affect a greater number of users in normal use. We certainly had our share of esoteric bugs, but by far we made tremendous strides over the last couple of years with the agile monthly update model to eradicate most of the most frequently reported issues. Our bug tracking metrics definitely show this.
 
I recommend that folks take a wait and see approach over the next few months. It takes time to transition a company to a new owner. The product works great today and will continue to do so for many years even if there were no changes. There is no pressing need to immediately stop work on SONAR and jump to a different product despite other companies bids to acquire Cakewalk customers. I'd personally like to see our customers support a company that actually wants to retain the heritage of this great product and build upon it.

CakeAlexSHere


1) Cakewalk didn't make any money. It lost money.
2) Mac version was abandoned and they just released a dogppile version so they could just say they kept their promises. It was a ridiculous idea from the start, would have been nice to have... But really really... Crazy. Costs are too high to develop for an unprofitable company. Not sure it could compete with logic either. Other DAW's also had Linux.
3) Sonar artist is the cutdown version. Granted not on Mac.
4) You should really read the Reddit thread I posted.

Regardless of Gibson's problems (which is a fair point) if Cakewalk was in a better place it would have been much easier to sell. At present it's unlikely, and regardless all the staff has left.

(FFS posting this again because spam scanner keeps deleting).

1) You claim that Cakewalk did not earn money. Unfortunately I can not answer for them, I do not work at Cakewalk I just posted facts about the serious situation of the Gibson that acquired the company. And it's going to get worse. So what I can say is that the situation goes far beyond what people imagine. This is not about: Cakewalk gave Gibson a lot of work and that's why Gibson closed the company. If it comes to the whole Gibson is in high debts, tried to solve the problem by changing strategies acquiring several electronics companies, but has not yet had time to switch to its new market strategy. In other words, she didn't know how to lead and change even the vision inside Cakewalk.
 
2) on the MAC version, as said took a long time and "died on the beach" (it is a saying that we use here in Brazil) took absurdly to launch and in the end it was too late. If I had come there at the time of Sonar 8.5 The story would have been different but we'll never know, I don't like to assert things without having facts to prove it.
 
3) Sonar Artist has a cost of 99 dollars. When the Reaper arrived, when the evaluation time was up you could still use it for free if you wanted (at this time I saw hundreds of people migrating from Sonar to Reaper) in addition and you were asked to pay 60 dollars for personal use and $225 in the commercial license the price difference is Absurd. Yes that I can say it was a big rock in the shoe of the Cake, and I'm just talking about the Reaper the other contestants didn't forgive as I said in my post. Even because the Reaper is an excellent Daw. In the vote by users of this year Reaper was in 6 place of 20 places the Sonar was ninth. See
 
The [link=http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/the-20-best-daw-software-apps-in-the-world-today-238905]http://www.musicradar.com...the-world-today-238905 link[/link]
 
4) Again you are making assumptions. We don't know the fate of Cake yet. Regardless whether they were in a good situation or not, they have a powerful tool in hands and many innovations. If it lasted more than 30 years, it wasn't just doing **** all this time.
 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

julianochrisway
So forget conspiracy theories. Cakewalk is closed for Gibson's problems and not on account of bugs. If bugs were something that prevented DAW sales, ProTools wouldn't even sell. Because in every project I do, I have bugs, very different from the Platinum Sonar. My latest project is a 28 track single with many plugins and samples on KONTATK.
 
So that's it, I made this text about my vision of what happened to the company, putting facts on the table, without creating crazy theories.

Hi Julian thanks for your rational discussion. Yeah the shutdown of Cakewalk was mainly to do with Gibson's focus change and of course our Company's profitability. It had zero to do with problems with the actual product. The evolution of SONAR was at its highest peak ever and we had some really amazing features and even more to come so its bittersweet that this happened at the peak. Regarding bugs, ALL software products have bugs and kid yourself not ALL the DAW's have similar or worse issues depending on where you look and how you use the software.
 
Bugs are a whole topic in itself that I may write a blog about. Some end users think that companies ignore bugs intentionally in favor of quick profits and shiny features. Nothing could be further from the truth. The main reason bugs exist are because there are some enormously complex and difficult to reproduce scenarios that prevent them being found by developers. We had certain bugs that only showed up for a tiny set of users on their systems only when using myriads of plugins. In such scenarios the time cost of identifying and fixing those bugs becomes huge (it can take a developer or qa team, weeks to even get to the problem let alone fix it). So its common for software companies prioritize more common bugs that affect a greater number of users in normal use. We certainly had our share of esoteric bugs, but by far we made tremendous strides over the last couple of years with the agile monthly update model to eradicate most of the most frequently reported issues. Our bug tracking metrics definitely show this.
 
I recommend that folks take a wait and see approach over the next few months. It takes time to transition a company to a new owner. The product works great today and will continue to do so for many years even if there were no changes. There is no pressing need to immediately stop work on SONAR and jump to a different product despite other companies bids to acquire Cakewalk customers. I'd personally like to see our customers support a company that actually wants to retain the heritage of this great product and build upon it.

I really appreciate your clarification, I was absolutely sure of what I was saying. I hate assumptions and theories. I like facts, I think your answer ends this discussion. Thank you so much for answering!

julianochrisway

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

julianochrisway
So forget conspiracy theories. Cakewalk is closed for Gibson's problems and not on account of bugs. If bugs were something that prevented DAW sales, ProTools wouldn't even sell. Because in every project I do, I have bugs, very different from the Platinum Sonar. My latest project is a 28 track single with many plugins and samples on KONTATK.
 
So that's it, I made this text about my vision of what happened to the company, putting facts on the table, without creating crazy theories.

Hi Julian thanks for your rational discussion. Yeah the shutdown of Cakewalk was mainly to do with Gibson's focus change and of course our Company's profitability. It had zero to do with problems with the actual product. The evolution of SONAR was at its highest peak ever and we had some really amazing features and even more to come so its bittersweet that this happened at the peak. Regarding bugs, ALL software products have bugs and kid yourself not ALL the DAW's have similar or worse issues depending on where you look and how you use the software.
 
Bugs are a whole topic in itself that I may write a blog about. Some end users think that companies ignore bugs intentionally in favor of quick profits and shiny features. Nothing could be further from the truth. The main reason bugs exist are because there are some enormously complex and difficult to reproduce scenarios that prevent them being found by developers. We had certain bugs that only showed up for a tiny set of users on their systems only when using myriads of plugins. In such scenarios the time cost of identifying and fixing those bugs becomes huge (it can take a developer or qa team, weeks to even get to the problem let alone fix it). So its common for software companies prioritize more common bugs that affect a greater number of users in normal use. We certainly had our share of esoteric bugs, but by far we made tremendous strides over the last couple of years with the agile monthly update model to eradicate most of the most frequently reported issues. Our bug tracking metrics definitely show this.
 
I recommend that folks take a wait and see approach over the next few months. It takes time to transition a company to a new owner. The product works great today and will continue to do so for many years even if there were no changes. There is no pressing need to immediately stop work on SONAR and jump to a different product despite other companies bids to acquire Cakewalk customers. I'd personally like to see our customers support a company that actually wants to retain the heritage of this great product and build upon it.

I really appreciate your clarification, I was absolutely sure of what I was saying. I hate assumptions and theories. I like facts, I think your answer ends this discussion. Thank you so much for answering!

I agree and I also appreciate the clarification. Any news/info is good news/info at this point.
 

julianochrisway

CakeAlexSHere


1) Cakewalk didn't make any money. It lost money.
2) Mac version was abandoned and they just released a dogppile version so they could just say they kept their promises. It was a ridiculous idea from the start, would have been nice to have... But really really... Crazy. Costs are too high to develop for an unprofitable company. Not sure it could compete with logic either. Other DAW's also had Linux.
3) Sonar artist is the cutdown version. Granted not on Mac.
4) You should really read the Reddit thread I posted.

Regardless of Gibson's problems (which is a fair point) if Cakewalk was in a better place it would have been much easier to sell. At present it's unlikely, and regardless all the staff has left.

(FFS posting this again because spam scanner keeps deleting).

1) You claim that Cakewalk did not earn money. Unfortunately I can not answer for them, I do not work at Cakewalk I just posted facts about the serious situation of the Gibson that acquired the company. And it's going to get worse. So what I can say is that the situation goes far beyond what people imagine. This is not about: Cakewalk gave Gibson a lot of work and that's why Gibson closed the company. If it comes to the whole Gibson is in high debts, tried to solve the problem by changing strategies acquiring several electronics companies, but has not yet had time to switch to its new market strategy. In other words, she didn't know how to lead and change even the vision inside Cakewalk.
 2) on the MAC version, as said took a long time and "died on the beach" (it is a saying that we use here in Brazil) took absurdly to launch and in the end it was too late. If I had come there at the time of Sonar 8.5 The story would have been different but we'll never know, I don't like to assert things without having facts to prove it.
 3) Sonar Artist has a cost of 99 dollars. When the Reaper arrived, when the evaluation time was up you could still use it for free if you wanted (at this time I saw hundreds of people migrating from Sonar to Reaper) in addition and you were asked to pay 60 dollars for personal use and $225 in the commercial license the price difference is Absurd. Yes that I can say it was a big rock in the shoe of the Cake, and I'm just talking about the Reaper the other contestants didn't forgive as I said in my post. Even because the Reaper is an excellent Daw. In the vote by users of this year Reaper was in 6 place of 20 places the Sonar was ninth. See
 The [link=http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/the-20-best-daw-software-apps-in-the-world-today-238905]http://www.musicradar.com...the-world-today-238905 link[/link]
 4) Again you are making assumptions. We don't know the fate of Cake yet. Regardless whether they were in a good situation or not, they have a powerful tool in hands and many innovations. If it lasted more than 30 years, it wasn't just doing **** all this time.
 

Again post got deleted. Repost..

1) I don't "claim" anything. Read the Reddit thread if you wish to analyse the source.

2) Well if they had started code from scratch, got rid of the bloat, and decided to put in a Mac and Linux version then.. then just maybe. X1 though inherited 8.5 code in it throughout making a decent Mac version impossible.

3) I was just saying Artist is the cut down version, of course they could have priced it differently. I did see artist going really cheap though on a number of occasions. Not disagreeing though, perhaps they should have made it a free download??

4) You are making a lot of assumptions as well, all of us are. But there was some really obvious stuff going on we can point to (which got burried because of censorship and propaganda). But as I said Cakewalk staff have left, the company was not in profit (source: Reddit). Gibson should have sold before winding down Sonar, but it couldn't. It appears the source code was too much of a mess for an Apple version, this it failed as well. I hope it does get bought up and/or made open source though.

To be fair nobody actually said the problem was just bugs either, those points have already been made in detail further back in the thread.

I read the Reddit thread as well and found it interesting.. but you cant seriously be quoting that as a "source" ?
There was no name attached to it. That could be Bert from McDonald drive thru messing with people.
 
Unless you count "former cakewalk" as a reliable source.

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

julianochrisway
So forget conspiracy theories. Cakewalk is closed for Gibson's problems and not on account of bugs. If bugs were something that prevented DAW sales, ProTools wouldn't even sell. Because in every project I do, I have bugs, very different from the Platinum Sonar. My latest project is a 28 track single with many plugins and samples on KONTATK.
 
So that's it, I made this text about my vision of what happened to the company, putting facts on the table, without creating crazy theories.

Hi Julian thanks for your rational discussion. Yeah the shutdown of Cakewalk was mainly to do with Gibson's focus change and of course our Company's profitability. It had zero to do with problems with the actual product. The evolution of SONAR was at its highest peak ever and we had some really amazing features and even more to come so its bittersweet that this happened at the peak. Regarding bugs, ALL software products have bugs and kid yourself not ALL the DAW's have similar or worse issues depending on where you look and how you use the software.
 
Bugs are a whole topic in itself that I may write a blog about. Some end users think that companies ignore bugs intentionally in favor of quick profits and shiny features. Nothing could be further from the truth. The main reason bugs exist are because there are some enormously complex and difficult to reproduce scenarios that prevent them being found by developers. We had certain bugs that only showed up for a tiny set of users on their systems only when using myriads of plugins. In such scenarios the time cost of identifying and fixing those bugs becomes huge (it can take a developer or qa team, weeks to even get to the problem let alone fix it). So its common for software companies prioritize more common bugs that affect a greater number of users in normal use. We certainly had our share of esoteric bugs, but by far we made tremendous strides over the last couple of years with the agile monthly update model to eradicate most of the most frequently reported issues. Our bug tracking metrics definitely show this.
 
I recommend that folks take a wait and see approach over the next few months. It takes time to transition a company to a new owner. The product works great today and will continue to do so for many years even if there were no changes. There is no pressing need to immediately stop work on SONAR and jump to a different product despite other companies bids to acquire Cakewalk customers. I'd personally like to see our customers support a company that actually wants to retain the heritage of this great product and build upon it.

The trouble with that advice Noel is that it doesn't give anyone any more information by which they can make a rational decision on whether or not to go with a new DAW. People are naturally worried that if for some reason they have to reinstall Sonar in the future, it might happen at a time after which the reactivation servers have been shut down. Ultimately the nightmare scenario would be not being able to load projects and losing work. It doesn't matter how much we're reassured that this will never happen, or how much we're assured that we'll receive some kind of offline key,  I think everyone's aware that the current situation is one in which anything could happen at any minute on the whim of Gibson. 
 
Your last paragraph is certainly interesting and is going to get a lot of people talking. Does Noel know something? Is there something on the cards? Are there potential buyers? Are talks taking place as we speak? However without something more definite, people are stuck with the possibility that Sonar might remain unsupported in perpetuity, and while crossgrade offers are still on the cards then people are going to continue to jump ship. 
 
Regarding bugs, I cannot shake off my hunch that something really weird happens to Sonar projects the older and larger they get. And this did not make bug hunting easy. As an example, not so long ago I tried to record a soft synth performance in which I had 10 or so synth parameters mapped to my controller and I write enabled the synth. The controls worked during the performance, and I saw all envelopes being drawn on screen as I adjusted them. However, when I hit stop, some of the envelopes were missing. They weren't on screen and they weren't in the edit filter list. Not only that, but envelopes for parameters I hadn't gone anywhere near seemed to have taken their place. Deleting one of those caused another envelope to disappear at the same time. And then other weird stuff would happen as I was adding or removing automation lanes. It got to a point where I could not describe what was happening because it was so illogical. And it wasn't the first time this had happened to me (a variety of synths). So then you go to create a bug report and find you cannot reproduce anything to a recipe. You try to recreate in a new project, but of course everything seems to work just fine in a fresh project. Sometimes trying to figure out recipes in a large project is really time consuming, because you end up having to close and relaunch the project multiple times to try different stuff, and when the project takes a minute or two to load, that's a very slow process. So sometimes I spent entire evenings like this looking for an "aha" moment only to come up with nothing. Along with the VST setting reset bug which has caused me to lose countless hours of work, I got to the point where I started to think these bugs were going to be baked into the program forever. And when Cakewalk was shut down that feeling just blossomed. 
 
I appreciate your point that all DAW's have bugs. I'm not sure if they're all equally as serious though. For example, before Sonar I used Pro Tools, and apart from CPU/memory performance issues due to the fact that it was only 32 bit and I was trying to run a lot of synths and sample libraries, I had some pretty large scale projects going in it and not once did I ever encounter anything serious regarding things like editing/automation/plugin settings. Nothing weird creeping into the project as it got bigger. Nothing that caused me to lose work. That whole meat and potatoes side of the program was rock solid for me. I switched to Sonar because it was 64-bit and I preferred the workflow. But in terms of encountering bugs and weirdness, it has been a lot more problematic than Pro Tools in that respect. 

chuckebaby
I read the Reddit thread as well and found it interesting.. but you cant seriously be quoting that as a "source" ?
There was no name attached to it. That could be Bert from McDonald drive thru messing with people.
 
Unless you count "former cakewalk" as a reliable source.

Fair point, but previous Gibson employees appeared to be recognising him on that thread and everything seems to add up, people can read the thread and decide for themselves.

You could also argue that this employees viewpoint was tainted (just saying this to provide a balanced viewpoint).

We know that Cakewalk was not in profit under Roland... and Sonar would still continue to be developed right now (sold) if in profit and we wouldn't be where we are. A lot of the staff would still be here and customers would not be disappearing to other DAWs.