cparmerlee
iRelevant
michael diemer
I wasn't disparaging loops. I just thought it was a rather humorous statement that they represented a higher level of abstraction.
Of course, it makes a difference if the loops are your own creation, or you just downloaded them from some repository.
I glad you found it humorous, but I think we have a different understanding of the concepts of abstraction.
When your working with loops vs creating them, you are working less detailed ... and from that perspective more abstract. At a higher level of abstraction in my book. It's not a value statement.
That is also how I would use the term "abstraction."
You can create your own lines (and loops if you like). This is the most detailed level (and of course you can manually tweak many aspects of the MIDI, so that is even more detailed, I guess.
Using a pre-fab loop is higher level or more abstract. Instead of creating your own funk beat, you choose from 100 different funky drum patterns. That is more abstract than creating your own loops. And of course, you can always dive into the loop and customize it, but the pre-fab loop gets you going more quickly.
In my case, I often start by generating MIDI from Band-in-a-box. In that case, you operate at the harmony and style level. I can choose from among thousands of styles. This is more abstract than loops because it creates a complete arrangement in minutes for starters. And again, I can dive down whenever I want to. Sometimes I end up replacing virtually all of the BIAB content in the final product. Other times, a big percentage of the BIAB MIDI remains. Either way, working at a more abstract level can get faster results (and for me, better results.)
cparmerlee - I had to read this a few times to get to the point where I think I understand what you mean. It is about as far away from how I operate as I can imagine, not necessarily by choice but from habit and routine. I'm always open to new ways of approaching things. To reiterate, I am not opposed to looping at all, but to lack of creativity I find in those who use it without personalizing, and after reading your post I think I might be ignorant of a way to use loops creatively, or to spur it in myself.
If I'm getting you, you're thinking more in terms of what, and I apologize for how esoteric this might sound but it's the only thing I can think of, you're working less from the concrete physical reality, and more from the Platonic eidos, the ideal non-material world, where you don't have to decide on anything specific (just Chair, not a red chair with 17" legs, just Chair) or invent any novel forms, or rhythms, but you can choose from an idealized palette of styles, rhythms, harmonies etc, going from the generic to the individual and concrete? Band in a box or the loops in Sonar are simply placeholders, or sources of inspiration for where your mind could lead you, until you whittle it down to your own personal choice. I have very little experience with BIAB and have never approached it the way you have.
I think abstract is not the best word for that because of the connotation in fine arts for 'abstract painting' meaning non-representational, as in splotches of paint, but to be honest, I can't think of a good word for it offhand.
If I could ask you though, do you approach it with the same mentality that the technology is a way of using what you know, and acting like a thesaurus, or are you exploring things you wouldn't have thought of on your own, like browsing a dictionary for new words? In other words, is it more streamlining thinking 'well, I'll use the AABA 32 bar jazz structure, and the I vi IV V doowop changes, the same instruments Coltrane used on xx album with alto, tenor, bari drums, piano and bass' - all of which you already know and are using the technology to find faster, or is it more like you don't know all the styles you use and may find a new style/rhythm/chord progression and you then use the technology to expand into areas you'd not have thought of without the external inspiration, but then utilize in a more personalized way?
I always start from scratch, if anything I might program in my own drum loop but often it's just playing against a click and constructing from a floor plan in my head, but what you're saying does sound kind of like the mental process I go through in composition (relying on forms from songs I know, progressions from styles of music, rhythmic vocabulary), but all drawn from a mental resource, my own 'database' in my head, but one that is no means all my individual creation but drawn from studying the works of others. In other words, I am by no means entirely original, I just keep a lot upstairs in my library to reference when starting.
They're all patterns that start out as idealized patterns (verse chorus verse, jazz AABA, sonata form etc), then become more and more individualized to my project I'm working on, which is the process of writing music for me, and often end up not at all like what I began with. I just in the past had the benefit of a band in a room to say 'play this, no try that, no try this, ok that works now add this....', not in a box. That doesn't sound entirely dissimilar from what you described. Definitely less flatulence from the band though.
You use technological tools as your 'database', or something like that, in a similar way or am I misunderstanding? I have largely ignored the samples folder in the browser window of Sonar because I don't see the point if I'm going to just replace it, but now I'm wondering if that is a bit of myopia on my part, and I'm wondering if or what Bandlab's perspective might bring to the Sonar platform as a synthesis of prefab loops/progressions that becomes part of the creative process in your head and in the program while you record, instead of using the recording process to capture what is already formed in your head. I still wait until I've got the bar lengths down before I record because I really, really hate having to edit 2 bars of audio out with 7 instruments laid down.
I don't think anyone creates from scratch, but using premade loops from what I hear often becomes a crutch instead of a tool, so I dislike it but don't invalidate its usage. In theory I truly don't see the different between a looped funk beat and a 32 bar structure in theory. I just see the limitations that the former is concrete, and the latter is an 'abstraction' in my head. From my perspective it's more work to deal with what you're referring to as an abstraction (which to my mind is actually already realized and concrete, like a recording of a musical score, as opposed to a musical score itself which leaves performer interpretation open), to individualize it so it doesn't sound like everyone else who has the database they bought online, than to just start by playing a rhythm in on a midi keyboard and creating my own loop to refine into a real drum part as I lay down more of the tracks individually.
I'm curious about your process and if you could elaborate I'd appreciate as it is very unfamiliar to me.