• SONAR
  • Getting Proffessional Sound From Guitar (p.17)
2007/02/16 07:18:45
thndrsn
stratton, Jose7822,

I did a quick search and didn't find anything relating to the reason why studios went to SS. My opinion is the industry changed to SS gear mostly because of cost and ease of maintenance.


My edumacated guess is that they went to solid state (if I'm right about the question) because they were tired of getting 350-volt shocks when monkeying around inside a chassis to fix something, tired of burning their fingers on a boiling hot glass tube when the things needed to be replaced in the middle of a session, tired of pulling their hair out over a 100-millivolt ripple signal in a 350-volt preamp plate circuit that showed up uninvited one morning and hummed louder than an e-bow through a Marshall, ecstatic about having a 48-track console with mic pres on every track that didn't generate so much heat that it was always an August noon in an air-conditioned room in New York in January, elated about the development of circuitry that chained gain stages together with direct DC connections without the filtering effect of capacitors and transformers needed to keep that 350-volt plate circuit DC-isolated from anything that stuck out the front panel or plugged into the back, euphoric about the 100-fold reduction in weight that resulted from throwing away all those transfomers in the power supplies and signal chain, and etc., etc., such that they thought for X-number of unsufficiently-considered moments that they had discovered the word "quiet" finally and at long last, and were so in love with the 20-yard long wish-list of positive changes that they didn't really critically A/B the gear in listening tests of the kind needed to hear the difference between tubes and those noisy, square-cut, unforgiving things called transistors. Back then it was hum. Now, the hum is gone and it's the thermal noise floor in a solid that just won't go any lower at room temperature. And performing in a room cooled to near absolute zero is not an option for most. Not one for me, anyway.

In fact, it really wasn't until the CD came along and people began to toss out their high-end turntables and record collections that those who didn't began to notice that an analog signal cut into wax direct-to-disk, reproduced mechanically in vinyl, back to analog in a featherlight tonearm and going through laboratory-grade differential vaccuum tube circuitry had such a clear, obviously superior pristine clarity over a CD played in any way whatsoever, that engineers began to critically listen to clean guitar sounds played through an amp, and noticed that tubes made a huge difference there, too. Most guitarists were so distorting the signal deliberately by the time this realization began to surface, that a Beach Boys kind of clean hadn't been heard by any but die hard Beach Boys fans with expensive gear for many years. And such people (I presume) weren't particularly eager to announce their perceptions to the world, as many of you may be aware, because of such things as that moronic visual joke in the movie "Rush Hour" that heaped ridicule on the very idea of actually enjoying any of the music that the Beach Boys pioneered (I never will understand why popular culture always feels compelled to pull the foundation stones out from under the wall in order to start adding another floor. It was sadly the same in my generation. Bing Crosby was way before my time, and predictably inspired my contemporaries to roll their eyes in "sophisticated" exasperation, but I have always known that he 'invented' the popular vocal, after Caruso brought melodrama from the opera to the street after the invention of the phonograph, and that Sinatra took the ball another ten yards, to the point where Presley could take it and then hand it off to the Beatles and a whole generation of 1960s artists, some of the best of which sang so well that they burned out quickly and lived only a short time, and then ...), not that I've ever understood why anyone would trade full-bore, good, clean, all-out screaming Beach Boys exhuberance for an unintentionally laughable brief series of slow-motion chicken-necked spasms, but since it may also have something to do with why the first generation of post-modern people didn't notice that transistors didn't sound very good, it probably bears looking into with Rorsharch tests or something. I wouldn't know which end was the top of those 'dirty' pictures, myself, but I knew immediately when I bought an Ovation electric solid-body with a built-in preamp back in the mid-70s that my guitar tone was instantly flat and lifeless and DOA no matter what I did with the knobs, or the amps, or the signal chain. But by then it was too late, though, since the guitar was already mine and the money just wasn't there for another one. Nice to know, after so many, many years, that I was absolutely right about that. Tubes, dude. Or stay home and listen to elevator music on your walkman. A-one! Two! Three! "If evrybody had an Ocean, ka-ching-ga-ching, across the U.S.A. ka-ching-ga ching-ga ching-ga ching ..."

--thndrsn

2007/02/16 07:23:14
thndrsn
P.S. Actually, I'm no purist and I do see the usefulness of transistors and their merits---in those places where they have considerable strengths, and even surpass tubes. And it really does depend on the song and the context. There's a place for a squeezebox, too, but it may not be in the solo section of an electric blues guitar trio. Similarly, with some stuff, like speed metal , for instance, the notes go by so fast that not only does it not matter what one plays through it doesn't even matter what one plays! As one Jazz great (I forget who) once said, "There's no such thing as a wrong note if you play fast enough." Probably something similar applies to transistors in the signal chain. There's no such thing as a 'bad' transistor if it's buried far enough down into the mix. (Smiley means that was the punchline of a joke. If you don't understand jokes or sarcasm, it's probably best to keep that to yourself.) And no matter how careful one is with the signal chain into the recording console, the listener is going to put transistors into the playback circuit at some point anyway. Actually, it's critical where the transistor shows up: in terms of sustain, the first impedance seen at the input from the pup coils on a guitar is the worst possible place for a transistor. The high grid impedance of a tube is good for sustain. (10 Megohms is good, infinite is better, every milli-microampere the input takes is going to rob the strings of motion. If you really want to get a "feel" for this, go ride a bike with a generator-powered headlamp and turn the lamp on and off while you pedal the bike. Whenever you turn on the lamp, ... oooff! It gets a lot harder to pedal.) Other places where transistors fall short of tubes are when they are used as the first impedance seen by the transducer in a mic or other electromechanical device, the last or next-to-last driver for a set of speakers, or the very last driver for a low-power device (like a reverb spring, cable driver, or splitter). In places other than these, all things being otherwise equal, a transistor will escape notice so long as the signal doesn't drive it anywhere near saturation or too close to the noise floor. FETs at an input improve things from an impedance perspective, but nowhere near to the extent that a well-designed tube circuit can. Electrons can leak through a tenth of a millimeter of silicon (a semi-conductor) much more easily than they can a quarter-inch of vacuum or clear glass (oxide of silicon, a non-conductor). And FETs just can't completely get rid of the amplification of the thermal motion in a solid. Now, having said all that, I have to admit that the first gig I ever played went through a transistor bass preamp I bult from a circuit in Popular Electronics with a then unheard of +/- 15db cut/boost in treble and bass going into a home-made monster of a tube amp. So the bass pups played into a transistor load. But that was a situation where the loss of sustain of the bass strings from the transistor load was miniscule compared to the +15db boost in the bottom end that I was able to send to that pair of Ham radio output tubes (with plates glowing red hot). These were driven (into class C operation!) by a pair of 6L6s, to give you an idea of the power that went into the single 15-inch speaker connected to it. The output transformer alone (between the 807 output tubes and the speaker) was about as big as an ATX power supply! It must have weighed 15 pounds! (This was my first ever gig, so it was certainly the first with this guitarist. The guy that frequently hired him for his private parties said after the gig that his guests were all commenting that they had been dancing all night because it was the first time they'd ever heard the bass player.) So, to answer the burning question, yes, I do use transistors, too, when they're the right tool for the job. But if someone gave me $6000 to spend on a high-fidelity stereo sound system preamp and power amp, would I get an audio system containing a signal-path transistor? No way.

--thndrsn
2007/02/16 08:50:57
evansmalley
hey thndrsn-
Nice to see when someone has some real knowledge has something to say!
I just wanted to say a couple things on topic for a change for me- not that that'll ever stop me from a ramble...

A couple things that can help a modeller sound more 3-D, and give you some better quickness and definition when at the shred-fest...

One thing we do is put a mic right on the electric guitar- focus on pick and finger noise... yep, you heard me right- just barely blend some highs from that mic back into the mix of amp, and/or amp sim... that will help add definition to fast playing. You may have to adjust to fit the latency.

Also, another thing that re-introduces the 3-D quality of an amp in a room is to pipe your amp sim, especially the verbs and delays- into your studio monitors (solo'ed, of course) and put a couple of mics in the room and record the room. (IF you have a decent room!) Helps to undo that sterile, 2-D, in a box sound- of course, it introduces a bit of noise... but is distorted guitar even SUPPOSED to be quiet?

And now... shall I pontificate about the difference between analog and digital...??? nahhh... not ME!

hope that's useful-
Ev

www.evanandnature.com
2007/02/16 09:00:18
mwall
Here's what I'm planning to do when I get around to recording my electric guitar parts:
Run a splitter cable out of my guitar with one line going into my miked up Fender Deluxe amp and the other line going directly through my Mackie mixer to the computer. That way I can play around with the clean recording using plug-ins to beef up or replace the miked amp track.

Another option I thought about for direct recorded track was running a loop from the computer through my external Pod and back into the computer, so I can play around with different tones there -- or would that be a bad idea?
2007/02/16 09:10:36
thndrsn
hey evansmalley,

Wow! Since it is only rarely possible for me to use the mic'd Fender Twin Reverb option (as in when everyone in the neighborhood is out of town! ), those suggestons are fantastic!

I like them both! Gonna try dat, botha doze, wunna these days fer sure!

I really like the idea of getting the note distinction from micing the pick!

But I also really like the idea of getting the modeler after it goes through the inductance of the monitor speakers and collects some ambience, too!

I've got the mics and the inputs. Now all I've gotta do is figure out where to put the mic stands. I'm running outta floor!

Very happy to hear that my dissertation was well received by someone at least. One never knows about these things ...

--thndrsn
2007/02/16 09:46:21
DigiDis

Another option I thought about for direct recorded track was running a loop from the computer through my external Pod and back into the computer, so I can play around with different tones there -- or would that be a bad idea?


This is what interests me so much about the PODxt Pro, the fact that it can do re-amping. Essentially, when you record you can send the dry untouched signal to the DAW and still monitor with the complete sound from your favorite patch. Then, via the in/out SPDIF connection, you can send the track out again to be processed and then recorded as another track, completely in the digital domain. I just wonder if the re-amped sound is just as good as if it were done originally without the second step. I don't know why it shouldn't be.

I intend to give the PODxt Pro another try next time one is available in the local music store. If it can give me great tones like I am used to with the V-AMP, I will certainly pick it up and incorporate it into my studio.
2007/02/16 09:48:10
marcos69
I liked the dissertation, but I've always liked dissert. I think all the years of lugging around those transformers in my cab is responsible for alot of my back and shoulder pains now.

Evansmalley, I'm going to try your technique of recording, that sounds like a great idea.
2007/02/16 10:04:15
marcos69

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

Well mott, does this answer your original question, or should we expound a little on the topic?


LOL. He hasn't said anything since he first posted his question. I hope he's been reading at least.


If I was the suspicious cynical type I would almost suspect the first post of being bait for someone to argue the merits of their setup.
2007/02/16 10:13:37
stratcat

ORIGINAL: mwall

Here's what I'm planning to do when I get around to recording my electric guitar parts:
Run a splitter cable out of my guitar with one line going into my miked up Fender Deluxe amp and the other line going directly through my Mackie mixer to the computer. That way I can play around with the clean recording using plug-ins to beef up or replace the miked amp track.

Another option I thought about for direct recorded track was running a loop from the computer through my external Pod and back into the computer, so I can play around with different tones there -- or would that be a bad idea?



I started a new thread to ask about signal paths, etc, for direct recording. It kind of goes with this thread....

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=975816

2007/02/16 12:45:00
stratton

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic


ORIGINAL: stratton


ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

What camp am i in. I use both in my recording, and you dare say i play for both teams. People will start to get the wrong idea..

CJ


I go both ways myself.


That is the right way. You get the best of both worlds. We are still talking about guitars, ??? Right!!!?!??


Guitars?
© 2026 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1

Use My Existing Forum Account

Use My Social Media Account