major latency issue with PHA-979 stereo width plugin

What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

dcumpian
What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for the reply! I'm not sure what changed in the system, nothing obvious. To make sure I understand fully, are you recommending I change the Bit Depth and such in an existing project by going to Utilities > Change Audio Format option? or are you saying to adjust my interface's ASIO driver options?

dcumpian
 

micah_jude

dcumpian
What changed on your system?
 
If the delay puts it OOS with other tracks, then it sounds like a bug in the plugin not reporting latency values properly to Sonar.
 
Does the issue go away with different bit rate/depth settings? If so, that may help Voxengo figure out what the problem is...
 
Regards,
Dan
 

Thanks for the reply! I'm not sure what changed in the system, nothing obvious. To make sure I understand fully, are you recommending I change the Bit Depth and such in an existing project by going to Utilities > Change Audio Format option? or are you saying to adjust my interface's ASIO driver options?

I'm saying that you should start new projects at different bit depths and see if the OOS issues goes away at different settings. You should only need a few tracks to test this. If you can't reproduce the problem in new, simple project, then it may be a problem in your existing project.
 
What Craig is talking about is overall latency, which is normal. From my reading of your OP, that isn't what you are talking about, is it?
 
Regards,
Dan
 
 

Understood. I will try that this evening then and see what happens. The odd thing is that the plugin appears to work just fine when putting it in and messing with it throughout the project. It seems only after i close out of Sonar, and then open up the same project that the latency is introduced. It's not just overall latency, no. It's enough to make some drum tracks start on the off beat :S you can imagine the chaos. Thanks for the help! 
I'll let you know what I find with your suggestions :)

Anderton
Enable/disable the PDC button and see what happens. Some plug-ins actually have dynamic latency that varies over time. PDC can sort of "reset" it so it lines up with the other tracks. 

That's a good suggestion as it will allow Sonar to realign the tracks, but it does sound like that plugin is wonky.
 
Regards,
Dan

bitflipper

Is there any way to fix this type of plugin-specific latency problem?

In a word, No.
 
There can be a number of reasons why a given plugin must necessarily introduce latency, but nearly all of them are due to its fundamental design. Stereo-width enhancers are one class of effect that usually does add latency, and it'll usually be a fixed amount that doesn't change when you change settings.
 
Not all width enhancers have to add significant latency, though. Some rely on complementary EQ rather than delays or phase shifts to create the widening effect. I do not know of any that have zero latency, though, although that's just my ignorance. I rarely use wideners at all, and on those rare occasions when I do it's the last step in the mix process when latency doesn't matter.

That's interesting. Maybe i'm thinking about this all wrong then. What do you usually do to a track if you want to widen it?  For example, in one of my songs "piece of me" I have some backing vocals that sit just wide of the main vox and it sounds heavenly imo. You can hear that part here: https://soundcloud.com/micahjude/piece-of-me#t=1:06 
 
This was done with the PHA-979 plugin so i could delay the right channel a few ms and then boost the "side mix" a bit. Is there another way of accomplishing this without the PHA-979 and without having to manually do it (cloning the track, hard panning, moving one over a few ms, adding slight phase adjustment...)?
 
Look forward to your thoughts!

John
When mixing as Dave was alluding to latency is unimportant. When tracking (recording) where you are monitoring the recording, latency can become an issue. Best advice is don't use plugins when recording. When done with doing the recording that is when one can use plugins. All plugins will introduce some latency. However many will introduce a lot for the reasons listed above in Dave's post. 

Thanks John for the reply. The strange thing is, i don't use plugins while recording or monitoring, this issue is coming up while trying to mix. For example, I have a project with dozens of tracks, all sounding fine and on time EXCEPT for my "overhead cymbals" track. This track plays back almost a whole second later than the others (which really kills a big break haha). This is the only track that had the PHA-979 plugin on it. When removing the plugin, it plays back fine and on time with the other tracks. So this is more than just simple latency that some plugins always introduce, this is literally throwing off my mix and timing completely. Some mixes i had to really rework the space entirely because of it.

Micah, I know this may sound silly but have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling the plug in?
 
Also, I noticed there was a new release back in June (2.2).  Is that the one you're running?
 

arlen2133
Micah, I know this may sound silly but have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling the plug in?
 
Also, I noticed there was a new release back in June (2.2).  Is that the one you're running?
 

you know, it's funny you say that. I actually JUST got an email from Voxengo that they now have the 2.5 update available. I'll try updating to the 2.5 and install both VST and VST3 to see if that fixes it (fingers crossed).

John

micah_jude

John
When mixing as Dave was alluding to latency is unimportant. When tracking (recording) where you are monitoring the recording, latency can become an issue. Best advice is don't use plugins when recording. When done with doing the recording that is when one can use plugins. All plugins will introduce some latency. However many will introduce a lot for the reasons listed above in Dave's post. 

Thanks John for the reply. The strange thing is, i don't use plugins while recording or monitoring, this issue is coming up while trying to mix. For example, I have a project with dozens of tracks, all sounding fine and on time EXCEPT for my "overhead cymbals" track. This track plays back almost a whole second later than the others (which really kills a big break haha). This is the only track that had the PHA-979 plugin on it. When removing the plugin, it plays back fine and on time with the other tracks. So this is more than just simple latency that some plugins always introduce, this is literally throwing off my mix and timing completely. Some mixes i had to really rework the space entirely because of it.

Thank you for responding.  I now have a much better understanding of what you are having trouble with. I agree with your conclusion about this screwing up any mixing you try to do. 
 
In this case I would try substituting Channel Tools for the offending plugin. It may do everything you need without the hassle.  

Just read up on channel tools....that might be perfect, why have I never seen this before??? geez. I will try that as an alternative to PHA-979 and see how turns out :)

Ah! Clarification. It's not latency per se, but a timing problem when the plugin is used. The track that has the PHA-979 gets out of sync with the rest of the project, right?
 
That would be a bug in the plugin. It's not reporting its internal latency correctly to the host. That's preventing SONAR from automatically delaying everything else to match it. You might be able to work around it by temporarily disabling plugin delay compensation (PDC) and turning it back on again. That forces SONAR to re-query all the plugins and re-calculate their cumulative latencies.
 
The good news is that if you don't need the phase-shifting feature, Channel Tools will do what you want. For something a little fancier that's also mono-compatible, you might also have a look at Meldaproduction's MStereoSpread plugin. Wait for it to go on sale for $44.
 
As for other ways to enhance width without resorting to delays, it's all based on the basic prerequisite for stereo width perception, which is that there must be left-right differences. Anything that causes the left and right channels to be different from one another will enhance width. That starts with panning, which means you should be using mainly mono tracks in your projects. Ironically, too many stereo tracks will hurt stereo width.
 
Other techniques include equalizing each side differently, preferably with complementary EQ, and using M/S processing to exaggerate the existing L/R differences. Channel Tools can do that latter trick, too. Some equalizers and compressors support M/S processing. That means you can using a M/S EQ to boost highs on the sides (most of our directional cues come from the upper-mid frequencies) or use an M/S compressor to compress the center but not the sides. This works well for drum overheads.