midi learn preset as "device chain"??

I've made a template using midi learn to control the basic mixing functions of P5 and all is well.

Hey, Vinny: IIRC, you've got one of those Behringer rotarys as a controller, and the ability to store templates in it. I'm going to proceed under that assumption. I do something like the following description in my own setup; you may find this useful.

Think of the stored controller templates as General settings. You might have one for mixdown, another for synth patch programming, one for drum programming, etc. and have similar enough needs for composition with synths to have a single one for that purpose, or maybe a few more (one for each go-to synth). Set up each controller template to transmit a unique set of MIDI messages specific to that template. You may have run out of knobs [is it 24?], but each of those can transmit a different MIDI message in each template. So now you can shift your entire remote configuration by just swapping out a controller template.

On to the P5 end: You only have one Save as Template readily available, so that has to be arranged as the most basic of all; a setup that you'll use most often. You don't want to conflict with anything else here, so this might be your mixdown template on the Project5 side of things. Maybe eight blank tracks with level, panning and aux/master control. Those MIDI Remote settings will be stored in P5's template, and recalled in a File/New Project from Template. If you find this limiting, you can adjust your settings and Save them as a regular Project file [.p5p], then File/Open when you need it. Name it something appropriate, like 16-Track Template.p5p to avoid any searching later on.

Now the Device Chains contain the specifics. I've opened up every synth that I own and (at first) not touched a setting. I'd like to keep all of the presets, etc. just as they've come from the 'factory' intact. Then just assign all of the MIDI messages that you've prepared from your general controller template for performance/composition. Do nothing else, and save it as a Device Chain. The next time that you want to use the synth, Replace/Insert from Device Chain instead of Replace/Insert Instrument, and all of your assignments will be set to go immediately.

You might want to set up sub-folders in P5's Device Chain folder for each synth, and store a performance, programming, with/without FX, etc. Device Chain file; each one corresponding to the original sister template in your BCR. You can also have a basic synth chain; one with commonly-used effects for that synth; still another with the Arp settings stored., and they'll all be under that synth's sub-folder.

Now you're at the point where you can call up any combination of synths for a project, have them automatically remote-controlled, and still have no worries that one setup will confilct with any other one. With this setup, you can flow from patch-tweaking to performance/composition to mixdown to mastering all by switching among controller templates.

I know that this sounds like a PITA, but it's worth the trouble from then on. You don't have to do it all at once; just attack the needs as they come up, but have a plan as to exactly how you want your final setup to be. You might have used the general purpose controllers in MIDI for your eight input levels. Mark that down, and use something else on the next controller template. Then bind those physical controls [sending a source message] to the destination parameters in a Device Chain that you want to control, and eventually you'll have everything just the way you want it, in a repeatable and remember-able[?] process.

Some common controls are found in almost every synth: things like the Mod Wheel, Sustain, Pitch Bend, etc. Try not to use these messages for anything out of the ordinary, but you can use that same message across synths for the same purpose. The problem with that is that you'll open up the Mod depth on more than one synth at the same time if they're both loaded. That's where port and MIDI channel configurations come into play. You can segregate two Mod Wheel messages over 16 different channels and/or whatever input ports are installed, and store that MIDI channel in your controller template [I assume] and the Device Chain as well.

One thing to note: you can control more than one destination in MIDI Remote Control with the same Mapped Source. This can be both an advantage & a disadvantage. You may or may not want two, or eight, or 16 parameters all responding to the same physical control knob. But once you use up a Contol Source, it's "intercepted" from it's normal routing (except for velocity), and can't be used in P5 in a 'normal' way. For example, if you map a MIDI Note like C5, you won't hear that note anymore in your synth.

Sorry for the length of response here, but there's no way to cover the subject completely in just a few sentences. If this just made it more confusing, be sure to reply back again, and I'll try to be a little clearer. HTH

But then my controller still sees what is now "track 5" according to p5 as track 16, messing up the mixer layout, especially if you move a few tracks up and down. do you know what I mean?

only cake can answer this for sure but i would guess that when you move track 16 up to the track 5 position all you have done is renamed track 16 track 5. if this is true it is unrealistic to expect an exchange of midi learn parameters with this move.

Thanks again b rock,

hope you don't mind me asking a couple more questions...

You are teaching your controller to send a specific message, and your synths/effects to react to that message when it comes along the MIDI stream. Project5 is acting as the mediator in this process: Like an air traffic controller, it spots the incoming 'flights', and routes them to the proper destinations without colliding with any other flight. P5 can only handle the parameters that a synth expose to it, and will only understand the Control Sources listed in the MIDI Remote Control [MRC] that are coming into it.

OK, understood.

Some synths also have a 'MIDI Learn' function of its own, but many don't, so it's best to use Project5 to manage all of your synths in an across-the-board manner

ok, but how? if synth doesnt have a midi leard (even Dimension does not seem to have, as when i right click any button, no learn option is given)

You are saying if I understand correctly, that you taught your synth some midi controls that match those in your harware template.
for those that have "hard wired" midi messages, I suppose it's a mater of having the midi list of each funtion. but for those who are "virgin" of midi messages and you suggest teaching them to recognize an incoming message and get p5 to manage that, then how did you do that?

Yeah, you're upsetting the apple cart there, because you're destroying the send/receive relationship that you've set up between the controller and P5. It'll still function, but not in the same structured physical layout that you have on your controller. You could either change and re-save your controller template to reflect the new track arrangement, or change the specific MIDI messages in P5's template to reflect the new ground rules.

"One track= one synth" is Project5's prime directive, and you can extend that to Device Chains as well. The mixdown overlay that you've set up in the one P5 template has been fixed by a Save operation, and your controller layout has been fixed in its template. You've taught both that this was how it goes, but you can't expect it to follow automatically when you shift the playing field. You can get some immediate relief by relabelling the track names, but you can't renumber the tracks to apply to your controller setup.

This is the kind of bi-directional communication that you gain with true control surface support found in many other applications, including Sonar. That works really well with automated/motorized fader controllers, like the 01X, Mackie, Tascam, etc. I seem to remember some noise about support for the BCF version of your controller in Sonar; the one with the faders. At any rate, P5 has a 'poor-man's' control surface support: if you want something, you have to make it yourself. Project5 isn't doing any talking to your controller; it's only listening for a monologue to come through. HTH

Ok, understaood.
Thats fine. I'll do as you suggest and "re-program" my mixer when a project gets close to mixdown stage.

Thanks again,

for those that have "hard wired" midi messages, I suppose it's a mater of having the midi list of each funtion

It's hard to believe, but I guess that I did miss something in the other books ...er, replies. Those 'hard-wired' parameters in some synths will react to MIDI messages without any special intervention. And these aren't necessarily going to be documented. You might need to take your KB controller through a discovery process, and throw out things like pitchbend, sustain, volume, mod wheel, etc. to see if you get any reaction out of an unknown synth setup. Those functions might also have the ability to be enabled/disabled on a per-patch basis. I know that it's a tall order, but you have to get to know your soft-synths inside out, and scour any documentation or FAQ's that you can find.

I mentioned that you should avoid reassigning certain MIDI messages so that you don't lose 'hard-wired' functionality. That won't do any real harm, but it might not be immediately obvious that you've lost a function. It's even more difficult to track down with an 'automated' system setup like we've been discussing. But there are several MIDI continuous controller messages that you should never touch until you're completely comfortable with the reasoning behind it.

The CC#s 0, 6, 32, 38, 96-101, and 120-127 are reserved for special puposes. Those include Bank Changes, RPN/NRPN and Data input, and Channel Mode messages. You don't have to know what this means, but you do have to know that reassigning those specific numbers can possibly wreak (temporary) havoc in your system (in hardware, especially). Since Project5 "intercepts" a MIDI message for its own use, that warning is mitigated somewhat, but it's still best to avoid those CC#s until you have a firm grasp of their functions. HTH

[Now I'm going to go soak my two index fingers in epsom salts. They're the only ones that I type with. <g>]

Give those index fingers a good rest

Already rested, Vinny. I just switched it up with some KB and guitar recording and all is well. I'm glad you got it down now; I'm afraid that it may have been my omissions and unclear explanations that may have confused the issue. Don't hesitate to bump this thread up if some more obstacles pop up. It's not easy to get everything just right, but when you do, your workflow efficiency will increase ten-fold.

For my own information: Tell me a little about the BCR's template editor. Is it that poorly implemented, or unintuitive? I'm assuming that it's a software component to the hardware. Or are you trying to program templates with a miniature LCD screen? (I don't remember the specifics.) Perhaps I can download the Editor from Behringer's site (if it exists), and see what you're up against.

the first drive thru talking sign ... 20 something years of development and you still can't communicate through one of those talking signs.

"KkkkkeeeeeI takkkkkkk yorder, plesssssst"
"Unnnnh ... one ... No. Two giant dinosaur burgers; some of those curly trilobites: hold the primordial soup, .... mmm, let's see. And a large lava. To go. And super-size it."

'Thhhaaat wazzza lrrrrdddino, sssssfft kkkkly,lllarggerpennkkkk. Do you want kkkssssss rrnnuganga with that???"
"(Huh?)"

" ........Thatdlllbeee shhhhkkkeesssT cents. Drive through, please."
"(What did she say ...?) Hey sweetheart? Can you cut the midrange at 1K down about 48dB on this speaker?"

"(Huh?)"

re-reading your thread, i see you ask more specifically about the editor itself.

If you want it you can download it from

http://www.behringer.com/05_support/bc_download/bc_downloads.cfm?lang=ENG

It looks alright, like all you need is there, but it is very buggy, plenty of files it doesn't pick up, so confusing when you want to save something etc.

Also, you cannot see a simple text file or print the list of midi controls used in one template.

So when you want to make sure a new template is not using a control from a previous one....no fun.

Anyway, enough moaning.

thanks to you I made a good step forward towards making music again, rather than developing my computer skills!

Yes, ticking off the table.
good thinking.

i'll do that.