move an entire arrangement in the timeline

Hello Sonar folks,
 
I'm a german composer for film and media and switched my DAW to Sonar X3 a few months ago.
In the past and currently I have the task to move my entire arrangement in the timeline. Mostly because of some changes in the corresponding movie. For some of my clients the final cut isn't really final.
 
What's the best practice in Sonar to move a range of an entire arrangment with all tracks, clips and tempo maps to another mark on the timeline? Would be nice if there is a one step solution.
 
regards
Markus
 

you can also insert measures. 
 
select ALL tracks with CTRL-A
Project > Insert Time/Measures
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR%20X2&language=4&help=Dialogs2.015.html

Does "select>all" nowadays really split and move everything? Tempo maps/changes, envelopes - everything.
IIRC, this wasn't the case not so long time ago.

I insert space (measures) for where things are to be moved TO, and then usually select and edit>cut that which I want to move, and do a paste special to put the selected data into the space I had created to hold the data.
 
Sometimes, I have to do this when there are meter changes (5/4 to 4/4, 4/4 to 9/8, etc.), and the insert measures seems to take on the meter of the PRIOR measure, and not the NEXT measure, and that means I sometimes have to fart around with getting the hole to be properly sized, but it does not take much to accomplish that - then I delete any extra measures with remove hole.
 
At times, things seem more complicated than needed, but it does seem to work OK.
 
Bob Bone
 

I have never been able to get tempo changes to move.  I always have to cut and paste them.
 
For a rock song, that may not be a big deal.  For film, it is a huge pain because sometimes there are very small and frequent tempo changes to make things sync.

I need to do this all the time, here's my method. It's easiest if you can snap to grid, but that's not essential. This particular method assumes no tempo changes are within the section to be moved; there are other options if tempo changes are involved.
 
1. Select all, place the Now time at the beginning of the section to be moved, and type S (split).
2. Select all, place the Now time at the end of the section to be moved, and type S (split).
3. Select all, and drag in the time ruler between the start and end times of the section to be moved. Now all the clips in that section are selected.
4. Right-click on any of the clips and choose "Create Selection Group from Selected Clips."
5. Go to Options and make sure "Select Track Envelopes with Clips" is selected.
 
You can now move the section as one entire block. Unless you ungroup the clips, you can keep moving it around as needed. If you need to include tempo changes that are within the section you're moving:
 
1. First go to Options and make sure "Select Track Envelopes with Clips" is selected, then follow steps 1-3 above. Step 4 is optional.
2. Select Cut Special or Copy Special, and check everything. 
3. Place the Now time where you want the section to start.
4. Choose Paste Special, and make sure Advanced is enabled so you can select tempo changes and automation envelopes as elements to be pasted.
 
That should do it.
 
 
 

Move EVERYTHING should be a feature request for X4, IMO... This should be a simple action, as "create space" between xxxx and yyyyy.  Or a pull down menue which lists everything that can be tagged.  It's kinda wierd that some elements of a song/arrangement are excluded...

Vastman
Move EVERYTHING should be a feature request for X4, IMO... This should be a simple action, as "create space" between xxxx and yyyyy.

 
You can do this already with insert measures.
 

Or a pull down menue which lists everything that can be tagged.  It's kinda wierd that some elements of a song/arrangement are excluded...

It the examples I gave above, everything is included - envelopes, tempo changes, markers, etc. I think the problem is that these aren't checked by default, so people assume there's an issue. And the only way you can expose these parameters while pasting is to click the "Advanced" button on the Paste Special dialog.

Beepster
Perhaps an "Insert/Remove Measure" feature with copy/paste functionality could be something Cake could work on for this type of work. Basically have it all controlled from the timeline instead of the Clips Pane. Insert X amount of time to create a hole at a point and everything (tempo map, automation, EVERYTHING) after that point moves over to accomodate. Remove would do the reverse (or have an option to retain the hole without anything moving).

 
What am I missing? It seems Project > Insert Time/Measures already does this for whatever tracks you've selected. If you've selected all tracks, it moves everything over by the specified amount. Cut special allows removing a section and deleting the hole.
 
As long as everything is enabled properly, you drag across the timeline after selecting all, specify the correct track where you want paste to start, etc., then copy special, cut special, and paste special work very well. Granted there are a lot of options that require your attention to get it right, but these can be life-savers when you want to paste starting in a different track, paste a certain number of repeats, etc. 

Anderton

Beepster
Perhaps an "Insert/Remove Measure" feature with copy/paste functionality could be something Cake could work on for this type of work. Basically have it all controlled from the timeline instead of the Clips Pane. Insert X amount of time to create a hole at a point and everything (tempo map, automation, EVERYTHING) after that point moves over to accomodate. Remove would do the reverse (or have an option to retain the hole without anything moving).

 
What am I missing? It seems Project > Insert Time/Measures already does this for whatever tracks you've selected. If you've selected all tracks, it moves everything over by the specified amount. Cut special allows removing a section and deleting the hole.
 
As long as everything is enabled properly, you drag across the timeline after selecting all, specify the correct track where you want paste to start, etc., then copy special, cut special, and paste special work very well. Granted there are a lot of options that require your attention to get it right, but these can be life-savers when you want to paste starting in a different track, paste a certain number of repeats, etc. 

I'm more referring to what the OP is talking about as in absolutely everything in the project is moved with a simple procedure as opposed to having to making sure all tracks, automation, tempo, controller changes, markers, whatever are going to make the desired moves. As you said making sure EVERYTHING is going to do what is needed can be confusing and weird. I'm basically saying there should be a simple "Everything" option from the timeline where we don't have to think about that kind of stuff and know immediately that we created the holes, moves, cuts, etc across all views, data or whatever. I guess at this point (after your answer about how it can all be done with some fiddling) is about simplification of the process. Maybe also have it accessible from the Navigator view.
 
This may sound weird but I used to have quite a few selection problems in X1 and X2 that made editing difficult and sketchy. In X3 those have been resolved as far as I can tell but now I get concerend about automation, MIDI stuff, markers, tempo stuff, etc not really doing what's needed with a bulk edit (due to my own inexperience with these things because I usually wait until a song is fully composed before screwing around with a lot of that stuff). Something like that would just help me, personally, feel more comfortable making those types of full project changes. Knowaddimean?
 
Anyway... just pontificating. Absolutely not a compaint or trying to be argumentative but something I think would be cool for the Bakers to implement. It would just make things a lot simpler for stuff like this.
 
Cheers.

@craig...
Yup... I get all that and I must apologize because I'm probably not really explaining myself in the most effective way (lots of pain last night so not much sleep). Of course all those options are necessary and useful and it's not all that cumbersome to do these tasks if you are aware of everything. Thing is looking at those options can be confusing for beginners. I, now after using the program and studying audio for a few years, can understand what's up and make the correct selections if need be but when first messing around with these concepts it was difficult.
 
So what I'm suggesting is an alternative method that is subtractive in its approach to what is being manipulated as opposed to additive like the current method. Basically the same box would/could pop up with the same options but everything is selected by default (including the tempo map and everything else). Everything would be automagically split, moved, removed, pasted, etc. It would almost be like editing a single audio track without worrying about all the fiddle faddle. That way dum dums like me or those in need of quick whole project edits like the OP can do so effortlessly. Obviously there would need to be an insert time option for creating specific sized holes but that already exists. Well all of it already exists as you have mentioned. It would just be the way the command is approached by the program.
 
I personally think it would be a helpful simplification for video stuff like OP is doing and for me personally it would help me for some composition tasks (I like moving entire sections around as I write) and I've also encountered some problems when trying to manipulate and time correct previously recorded material in bulk (like whole studio sessions).
 
Again... totally not arguing and certainly Sonar can do all this (wouldn't want to suggest otherwise) I just think an alternate "whole project" editing option would be a helpful simplification of what can be a daunting task for us who are still a little shaky on things.
 
I do look forward to any Tips entry you write on this though because obviously I could use a bit of condensed, logical clarification on the matter.
 
Hopefully that's a little clearer. Cheers and thanks for the replies.

Oh and any holes created could default to the set project tempo/time sig and manipulated after if need be or set like a usual time insert.
 
Anyway... I'll go back to my corner and be good. :-p

Anderton
FYI the clip grouping feature is really helpful when songwriting. You can create "blocks" of chorus, verse, solo, etc. and move around as you work out the arrangement.

Craig, if you're ever looking for a tip topic, I think it would be interesting to read about how you use this technique in songwriting. I  go back and forth between thinking I should stay away from the DAW until I've got the songwriting part finished, or at the other extreme maybe I should use the power of the DAW as part of the writing process. I've had good and bad results both ways, but getting a handle on clip grouping might tip the balance for me...

please, how to move song with mutiple tracks and mutiple clips in tracks from location with tempo changes to new placement with one tempo? In fact it is situation when i want to discard tempo changes without  distorting original spacing of clips...
P.

You're replying to an older thread when Sonar at that time didn't have Ripple editing
 
Now that it does, this type of editing is childs play