nailing "the groove" of the song!!

I'll give you my take for what it's worth. One thing I don't like is a stagnant click track. You know, that wood block sound or a cowbell. I just can't groove to that. So the first thing I do is create a basic beat using a midi of kick, snare and hats...or I'll substitute the hats for a ride bell. This really helps me because it's more realistic sounding than the normal click. I CAN play to a click, but I just don't like it at all...and I have to make it so loud, it's just an annoying process I can do without.

Once my midi drum sequence is set up, I then record a guitar track. After that, I record bass. When they are all done, I check to see that the tracks are tight and have the groove going on. If they do, I'll go back and play real drums or a V Drums kit. I'll pan the midi click track to the left so that it doesn't confuse me with the real kit I'm playing.

From there, I'll make sure the drums I just played are tight with the midi kit. Then, I'll listen to the guitar and bass and make sure they are tight with the real drums I just played. If I was a little loose with the bass or guitars now that the real drums are in, I'll either recut them totally or just punch in and make things tighter and more to the groove.

If everything checks out there, I'll play another guitar track so I have stereo guitars. If I will have keys in the tune, it will depend on how dominant they are and this will dictate when they get recorded. I sometimes have a bit of a problem with vocal pitches when wavery type keyboard lines are in the way of my vocals. So most of the time, I'll sing my lead vocals without any keys going on unless I'm in need of a piano or something.

From there, I'll do all the backing vocals and then add in the specials like lead guitar, strings, special effects, samples of special effects etc. All the "icing on the cake" stuff last. Hope this helps you a bit, best of luck.

Interesting timing of this thread. I just finally nailed the groove on a 4 year old song the other night.

It all comes down to the drums or the interaction of the drums with bass. There are usually several ways to approach the beat of a song and you need options before locking into the final version. The quickest way is to find a song which has a similar feel and approach for the timing of the song and copy that basic drum approach. You can refine later. But the actual process of getting to the point of using a particular approach is different depending on the primary instrument of the song.

If the song has an acoustic guitar then track that first. A lot of drummers lock the hi hat pattern to the strum pattern of the acoustic. Alternatively if its a keyboard based song the hi hat pattern may emphasize the downbeat or the emphasis of the keyboard chords with the drummers right hand (if a right handed drummer). If it's metal then either the electric or bass will set the emphasis. So basically the approach is different depending on the genre.

As others have stated, sometimes a basic clik track is best when capturing the initial instrument which sets the pattern and tone of the song. This is my approach to which I will then add bass. At this point I will find a pro track with similar sound and feel. After I find a target track and duplicating the kick and snare pattern out goes the clik. I may re-record the bass at this point to match the feel of the drums. I feel it's really important to get this part refined so that the groove is done.

I had a 3/4 country song I wrote several years ago to which any drum pattern I found in Superior Drums or other libraries always sounded hokey. Last week I was listening to a Taylor Swift album, great production by the way, and I noticed the approach the drummer took on a 3/4 song which was completely different than any sample midi I had run across. I copied that pattern and it improved the whole song 100%. I modified the basic beat with cymbal embellishments and a hi hat pattern that matched the acoustic guitar and it really pulled together the song. Finding the best Groove is key to the foundation of any song. It's what makes us tap the foot or bounce the head and putting time in on refining it is key. Otherwise people don't buy the authenticity or passion of the performance.
 
The best alternative to all this is find a really good drummer and make him your best friend.

Middleman


  Last week I was listening to a Taylor Swift album, great production by the way, and I noticed the approach the drummer took on a 3/4 song which was completely different than any sample midi I had run across. I copied that pattern and it improved the whole song 100%. I modified the basic beat with cymbal embellishments and a hi hat pattern that matched the acoustic guitar and it really pulled together the song.

Ah yes... grooves are not copyrightable..... so grab the good ones and use them. Excellent way to do it too BTW.

Just a warning...listening to too much Swifty can ...... well we won't go there....

I usually start a groove with a beat, either midi or loop. Then lay down a guitar, bass or key idea. The point is to establish the groove by making the first recorded tracks against a real beat, as opposed to the metronome.

Ok, to summarise then, most people here really lay down a midi based drum beat (usually not metrenome), and then try to get one of the instruments (usually the focal instrument of the song) to play the groove of the song to this beat.I generally take this method too.

Would I be right in saying that most people do not have real drums or an electronic drum kit to their availability and so basically (a) use the beat already there (maybe using some humanization tools) or (b) adding a new finer tuned beat instead of the initial structure based beat?

It is really time consuming at the start aint it, I find it takes so long to try to muster up the right beat so I can just get recording!

Cian

whack


It is really time consuming at the start aint it, I find it takes so long to try to muster up the right beat so I can just get recording!

Cian

I'll agree with that...but only when you're creating your own drum track from scratch. I have the highest respect for you guys that create your drums with grooves, samples or step written parts. If I didn't play drums for real, I probably wouldn't record much on my own unless I had a drummer. It is pretty easy to just drop in a midi beat to get yourself started. It's AFTER that it becomes time consuming. I programmed 2 drum kits from the ground up my entire life. The first one I loved because it was new and wasn't anything tricky.
 
The second one....whew, what a nightmare! I went out and bought an E kit after that because it was just way too time consuming. Of course back then, we didn't have the tools that are available today. So I'm sure writing out a part would take half the time it took me then...but still, it's way more time consuming for me when I can just jump behind my V kit or my real drums. The editing on my playing takes about 15 minutes or less...so this is something I sure am glad to have in my arsenal. God Bless all you guys that don't play drums or have a real kit at your disposal that create these awesome drum parts. :D My hat goes off to you!

Kev999


To Me, it doesn't make sense to add a prominent instrument at a late stage in the process, or to wait before adding an important lead instrument just because the drums are not finished yet.

If you're not quite clear on why I mentioned that about waiting, I'll explain. When I create a basic midi for tracking purposes, it's not like what you would probably create if you wrote a drum part. It's what I call a "stagnant click" and it's only there to allow the tracking of instrumentation. Once things are tracked, a real drum track is going to be different. Some of the beats may be heavily groove oriented, staggered, syncopated and there will be new life bread into the tune. This changes what the instruments will be doing, especially if it's a main instrument. If my stagnant midi track is a basic "boom bap, boom boom bap" (not to be cornfused with"bap-u" lol) and the real drum track has a bit more gusto and groove going on, your main instrumentation may need to key off of this type of thing more than following the stagnant click. For me, certain instrumentation needs all the right stuff before I can track it so I have the right feel going on. I sometimes can't even feel it if the right drums are not in place...so I hold off until the song materializes into the vision I heard in my head so the main instruments can be spot on and in "groove time" as opposed to "stagnant click" time. Make sense at all?

"Since the bass part is practically written with my guitar riff  I don't need to add the actual bass part until later."

Ah Hah!!!!

Weren't you recently asking about your concerns that your bass isn't sitting where you want it?

The best way to reserve a place for the bass and to get everything to sound well tuned to the bass tone is to get the bass down very very early.


best regards,
mike

I Play all my drums from scratch but before puting down the drums I always  set the click and Record a guide guitar.

Turn the Click up as loud as I can get it and turn the guide down so I can only just hear it when playing the drums this lets me feel whats going on but not follow the Guide guitar and just follow the click useing the guide to take ques from etc.

After that I delete the guide guitar and record the bass  then re record the guitar part etc etc.

If I am doing a studio session for another band not in my Studio I normaly ask for the same thing unless for some reason they have already recorded all parts with a click then I will just folow the click and all the recorded parts and just go with it they can stop the recording if its not got the feeling they want and we can play about with it.

I guess there isnt really any right or wrong way to do any of this if the end result is good :) what works for one person might not be best for the next.

I know other people who when recording there drums just cant record with guide tracks and just play with drums and click noting else. ( you really have to know your song doing that though )

Friends of mine who use midi grooves tend to get a tight Guitar track recorded tight to the click and then use midi groove clips to make up the drums for the songs and draw what else is needed in to piano roll then if the guitars need changed record them again or put the bass down then guitar etc

I think a lot of it that way is just trial and error takeing me back to if it works for you then use it :) if it dont then keep going until you find the best way for yourself to work :)

Norrie

With regard to the clik track, Jeff you reminded me of my latest approach to the clik, I don't use beeps or midi tones for that any more. The standard metronome in Sonar is ticking sound. I have been using a cowbell wave sound recently and it really helps tonally to not loose the click during tracking. That seems to be the problem with drummers losing the clik or a guitarist who is dealing with significant volume at the source while trying to hear the clik on headphones. Some unusual tonal sound source can help keep things on track especially at the beginning of tracking.

One rule Ive always followed with the click is turn up the volume and actualy just play around the kit make sure you can hear the click.

Once the volume of the click is set start laying down a groove to the click and what I find is if I cant hear the click then I am bang on it but the momment I start to slow down or speed up the click will become more prominent so I know I am starting to fall behind the click or speed up.

I normaly work around a rule if I cant hear it I am bang on it :)

Only problem with that is a lot of Drummers panic the second they cant hear the click rather than just going with it

This works for me I am not saying it will work for all drummers every one has a different way but that is mine :)

Norrie

Wow, a lot of interesting feedback on this. digi2ns i prob agree with, getting down a  basic click and then getting the focal instrument to get that groove, then using that groove when adding in other stuff.

I like to build midi drums from scratch since I can play drums but it is tedious, roland v drum might b on the cards.

Anyone else find that if you type a simple beat in session drummer (SD2 in this case) that sometimes it actually goes off time? or maybe that just what Norrie said, you panic when you start hearing the beat!

Thanks for all info.

Unless you have a lot of experience, I figure it's best to put the most important parts down first, those that will have the most frequency real estate. Then, from there forward, everything else loses if it conflicts with those important parts, by reducing their frequency suckage. In much rock, drums are key, and lots of pros start with the drum production, then bass, then everything else. I guess in modern rock the bass is often not so much of a thing as it used to be, or guitars for that matter these days.
 
But it's hard for most of us to see where things would have to lie to leave the correct hole for a key part of the song to be put down later. I don't want to create the song in the mix, so I want to know how things should sound as much as possible and track it that way. So I will generally try to get those key bits down first, and anything else that goes down has to fit into what's there or lose.

I think it often helps if you have a guide track of some sort, a commercial track whose production is close to what you want. That can help you foresee what you are going to need tone-wise on those early tracks, so that they will fit the final production after the other stuff goes down.