new computer fast, BUT

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LNovik
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2011/05/21 08:06:22 (permalink)

new computer fast, BUT

I--the guy from "the Computer Overwhelmed" thread-just hooked up my new i5, 3.2mH 6gbRAM computer. I can share all specific comparisonsl (between old and new) later, but I can easily now run--and record in my project with all 50-60 tracks, about 20 of which are audio. Some of those audio aren't all running at the same time, but there are at least about 15 audio tracks going at the same time. I can now turn back ON all of my 5 effects without overloading.
My big problem now is: when I try to record a simple tambourine (from a midi track to an audio track) on the 3rd beat of each measure, just for about 10 measures overall, there is a very significant lag between the recorded tambourine and the midi track. In fact, the recorded track comes in too early. The midi track comes in with the metronome beat.
Thus, I assume my playback must be delayed, because how else could something be recorded BEFORE it plays. However, under OpTIONS\audio, my horizontal bar is set all the way to the left, with the "buffers" box just above this set on 2.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
LarryN
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    Beagle
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/21 08:56:09 (permalink)
    3.2 milliHertz?    don't you mean 3.2 GHz  (Giga)?

    why are you trying to RECORD the tamborine from MIDI to AUDIO?  use the BOUNCE or FREEZE features if you need to save it to a wave track instead of a MIDI/OUTPUT track.

    and latency is caused by the soundcard and its drivers.  if you're using your onboard soundcard then you're not going to get low latency.  but you didn't mention what soundcard you're using so I don't want to assume and give advice based on an assumption.

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    #2
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/21 09:46:44 (permalink)
    Yes, I do mean 3.2 GHz; I'm still not good with these terms.

    I frequently use a MIDI track 1st to record percussion or bass, so I can more easily clean up my timing. I thought freezing was when I want to take an audio track with an effect on that track, and then freeze so that I don't need to have an active effect taking up resources anymore. I guess you're saying that I can also use freezing on a MIDI track, and it will automatically record a corresponding MIDI track? Or else, I guess I can just do this by choosing "bounce to track or clip," and it will automatically create the corresponding audio track.

    As for the audio card, I have taken my M-Audio Delta 66 from my old computer, and placed it into my new one. I was able to happily, rather easily, download drivers for this card and it seems to work very nicely--other than this recording latency problem that I mentioned. I do have it on WDM, though it went to this automatically.

    Thank you for your interest.

    LarryN
    #3
    Beagle
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/21 10:47:40 (permalink)
    I'm very sorry, Larry, I misread your initial post.  I thought you said you were recording MIDI to an AUDIO track.  I just reread your initial post and I'm not sure why I thought that now unless it was before my 2nd cup...

    you are correct you don't need to freeze for recording midi - only for saving resources or if you want to work completely in the audio realm for mixing.

    anyway - this sounds like a latency problem.  what are your buffer settings on the D66?  you're in WDM driver mode, and that's OK, probably, we might want to try ASIO, but either should work at low latency for m-audio drivers.  so first let's look at what you currently have your latency slider set to in the OPTIONS>AUDIO window.  and what does the reported latency at the bottom of that window say about your ROUND TRIP LATENCY in millisecs?

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    #4
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/21 15:30:29 (permalink)
    Sorry, I'm in and out today.
    Under the General tab, under Options\Audio, my slider is all the way to the left. or "fast." Under that it says: Effective latency at 44 kH at 5.8 msec.

    Interestingly, when I tried to freeze a MIDI track, after having read what you originally wrote, I had first make a test MIDI track and moved up some MIDI clips to that new MIDI track. However, when, after I copied the first clip, and then went to paste it to the new track--at the same measure, it said "do you want to paste to" a particular measure. However, this was a quarter of a measure off from where it was supposed to go. My meaning here is that maybe the problem is not latency, but somehow new things are being put in a quarter of a measure earlier or later than they should be???
    LarryN
    I'm keep working on this from my end and let you know what I have. Meanwhile if you have any more suggestions, I would appreciate it.
    Thanks again.
    Larry
    #5
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/22 09:34:48 (permalink)
    The statement, by me, just above is probably confusing and misleading. When I went back and again tried to copy and paste a midi clip to another midi track, it did paste to the correct measure.

    HOWEVER, I still have the same curious problem: in this case, I am simply trying to record 1 tambourine hit per measure already recorded to MIDI. Thus, I am soloing the MIDI track and pressing the Record button on a new Audio track. The audio track comes outs with good clarity, but just significantly EARLIER than the midi track. THus, when I solo and then play both the MIDI track and the just recorded audio track together, the AUDIO track is significantly earlier. I am able to correct this by "nudging" over the audio track, but I don't think I should have to do this all the time. I guess since the audio track is coming out earlier, there must be a delay concerning when I hear the whole project being played. However, the part that "hears" the midi part and is recording it does not experience this delayed signal. Curiously, the rest of my project, which is so far made up of MIDI and audio projects, seems to play on time.

    I did write my audio settings on the post above this one.

    Any suggestions. Thank you again.

    LarryN
    #6
    lfm
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/23 12:00:47 (permalink)
    I don't understand the procedure you use for converting midi to audio.

    Press freeze button on the synth track that is having the tambourine and over and done.

    What you describe sounds like audio has to go through computers "what y hear" and then is recorded again on a new audio track.

    Why this cumbersome procedure?

    Or are you using external hardware synth, say so. Then it would make more sense. If so read about using external midi equipment how to tell Sonar about calibrating this.

    But with one hit per measure it still seems odd you have to do anything. You must be running a midi clock or something on the external synth with an sequencer onboard. And this tempo setting is different in the amount you describe.
    #7
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/23 19:31:15 (permalink)
    Now I understand some of your confusion. Yes, I AM running external gear. Thus, I recorded a midi drum part using the sounds from my Motif--in this case just a tambourine to go along with the already (audio) recorded snare drum on every 3rd beat of a measure. Then, I pressed solo on that track--so other MIDI sounds on my project would not get recorded--and simply pressed record on a free audio track. As I said, it recorded fine, except the audio tambourine hits came out significantly earlier than each midi hit-when played simultaneously.

    Ifm says to read about using external midi equipment; how to tell Sonar about calibrating this. I DID do an audio calibration  after loading Sonar onto this computer, but perhaps you are talking about something else. Do you know under what topic I would find this info? My old computer used to handle this without a problem, but perhaps it was calibrated differently.

    You say I must be running a MIDI clock or something on the external synth. I am simply playing the same drum patch I have been using for years with Sonar, and have not had this problem before.

    I now plan on recording a part live, while listening to my project. Then I will be able to see if what I record is still earlier in time than it should be, since I will be able to compare it to the rest of the project. If it is on time, then that distinction may help.

    Thanks again for your time.

    LarryN

    #8
    johnnyV
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/24 11:27:51 (permalink)
    Sounds to me like you are a prime canidate for tossing the outboard gear and just use the soft synths. The TT-s has just about everything that was ever available from the last 30 years and will easily replace those outboard modules. You are suffering from using a confusing set up when it could be very simple.

    1- Load the TTs1
    2- Insert a MIDI track
    3- Record the tambourine
    4-If you wish, and there's no reason unless your computer is suffering, convert the midi to audio using freeze or bounce.
    It sounds like your trying to record the track in real time, that's not necessary anymore. 
    Sonar does have an offset that it automatically adjusts your monitoring to the recording, It does the math and that way you will play along with pre recorded tracks in sync. You can test if this is working properly with a round trip test and comparing the wave form.
    Somewhere within that lies your problem.

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    #9
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/24 19:00:10 (permalink)
    Thank you JohnnyV, but you lost me on TT's. I know Audi has a TT, but I doubt you mean that.
    Oh, now I think I realize. You must mean the soft synth called TTS (or TTS1)? Actually, though I was joking about the Audi, I really did not know, and am still not sure, what the  TTS1 is, but I'll look for that in my list of soft synths.
    However, I'm really not sure what this means: You can test if this is working properly with a round trip test and comparing the wave form.
    Thanks
    LarryN
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    Kev999
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/24 23:38:19 (permalink)
    LNovik

    ...am still not sure, what the  TTS1 is, but I'll look for that in my list of soft synths.
    The TTS-1 is a softsynth supplied with all versions of Sonar.  It doesn't have the best sounds, but it does have the advantage of being easy and quick to operate.  It's a good one to start with for anyone inexperienced with softsynths.

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    #11
    Beagle
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/25 08:37:20 (permalink)
    [pedantic] The TTS-1 is a softsynth supplied with all versions of Sonar since version 5.  Sonar came with Edirol VSC with S3 and S4, but I don't know about versions prior to S3.  [/pedantic] 
     
    TTS-1 is a GM2 based softsynth with easy to work parameters (GM is very easy).  it's not the greatest of sounds, but it's better than the MS GS wavetable anyway and as Kev says, it's a great one to start with.


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    #12
    johnnyV
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/25 11:36:28 (permalink)
    That's what I figured, your using outboard because you have not discovered soft synth yet.  I was of the same school  using my outboard MIDI gear because  my computer and Sound Blaster were so bad I could not use the Soft Synths. I took the plunge over a year ago and have not looked back.  The TTS-1 is more than fine as a starting point. From there you can go nuts collecting others. There are many that are absolutely free available at sites like KVR. Then there are samples and all that stuff too. It just all inside your computer now and you'll have to dig around and experiment.

    The round trip latency test involves plugging your sound cards output, back to an input.  There are two tests you can perform. One involves downloading th Centrance ASIO tester and it will test your Real Time Round trip Latency.
     
    http://www.centrance.com/downloads/ltu/

    The other test you perform is by recording a click track or anything that produces a obvious spike and run it out and back in to be recorded in an adjacent track. Zoom in and compare if the peaks line up. This is testing if Sonar is properly adjusting for recording offset.


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    #13
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/26 20:32:52 (permalink)
    JohnnyV, I'm sure that going into my virtual synths would work, and prob sound OK. However, I have what I feel are some excellent hardware synths,  such as a Triton, Motif, and some Roland's . I enjoy and am used to playing them. I have gotten to know their sounds, and I find it  easy to negotiate their keyboards and functions. For years, I  have recorded in this fashion. There is just something off with this new computer--or more specifically, with the settings of Sonar or my soundcard in relation to this  new computer.
    I will be putting the question to Sonar support. I'll let you know if they answer and what they say.
    Thanks.
    LarryN
    PS: However, what I will first do is the following. I'll start a new project, and again try to first record a simple  track to MIDI. I'll then play it while I record to an audio track. If that DOES match up in timing, than there is something wrong with the old project file on my new system.
     
    #14
    johnnyV
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/26 20:44:38 (permalink)
    Did you try the tests yet? If Sonar is not setting your offset properly then there might be your problem.
    If your Round trip Latency is high then that would explain the delay if you have things set a certain way.
    As example I cannot use an outboard synth with my set up as it will be off. That's why I made the switch to soft synths. Like I said, I was with your frame of mind after using them for 15 years but I don;t miss them now. Every sound they can make can be replicated with software. Takes a bit to find what you want but worth the time spent.

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    #15
    LNovik
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/26 21:29:18 (permalink)
    Progress!
    A few minutes ago, I wrote a note, which I can't even find now. I thought I had posted it. However, during writing it, I thought of trying out my recording problem with a brand new project.

    I thus recorded a simple MIDI track of occasional percussion hits.

    I then played the just recorded MIDI track while recording a new audio track. Voila!, they were now in sync. Thus, it must be that when I saved my project info from my old computer, it influenced some of the setting on this new computer. I will try to find a workaround. I guess I'll try to copy my MIDI tracks to a new project, convert them to audio, and then bring them back. I would think that should work. I guess there might be an easier way to do it, but changing something under the multiple fields in the audio options page, but that's all above me.
    LarryN
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    vijays
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/30 03:31:22 (permalink)
    You didn't mention what soundcard you're using so I don't want to assume and give advice based on an assumption and it is very good information.
    #17
    Beagle
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    Re:new computer fast, BUT 2011/05/30 06:59:35 (permalink)
    yes he did and you're just here to spam people with your signature.  people - don't be fooled by these guys who come in here making "semi-relevant" comments but offer no real advice and all they want is to show you the link in their signature so that you will click on it.

    vijays - you have been reported as a spammer.

    LarryN - glad you made some progress. 

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