SteveStrummerUK
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:04 PM
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Rain
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:13 PM
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BenMMusTech if we take the definition in the dictionary of virtuoso i can apply it to myself, sound is all in the listeners petspective. And the Ed Wood award goes to...
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jamesg1213
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:40 PM
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BenMMusTech petspective. Is that when the dog seems further away?
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Beagle
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:44 PM
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jamesg1213 BenMMusTech petspective. Is that when the dog seems further away? HEY!
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:46 PM
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jamesg1213
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:46 PM
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Beagle jamesg1213 BenMMusTech petspective. Is that when the dog seems further away? HEY! Darn it, you made me jump! I was looking through the wrong end of the telescope..
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offnote
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 1:56 PM
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Basically all you are saying the audience is more numb and less demanding as it used to be but isn't that our, musicians role to mold audience like it was during Woodstock time???
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Bub
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 2:05 PM
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I haven't seen anyone here on these forums who is a virtuoso. There's some extremely talented individuals who are very good in the genre of music they like, but to me, a true virtuoso would be someone who has mastered their instrument and can play any style. For example, the guy who could one minute be playing fiddle with Bob Wills and go sit in with the Philadelphia Orchestra the next night.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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jamesg1213
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 2:08 PM
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Bub For example, the guy who could one minute be playing fiddle with Bob Wills and go sit in with the Philadelphia Orchestra the next night. I think 'Scottytunes' could handle both those gigs.
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batsbrew
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 2:18 PM
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 2:26 PM
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In my cheese-thickened opinion, there are multiple factors here including the inbred commercial labels, corporate radio (Clear Channel), and the changing role of music in popular culture. For many of us, we grew up in an era where we defined ourselves in part by our music. It wasn't just a something to hear while dancing, or background noise, it was a crucial part of our identity. We didn't just click a "like" on some band's page. We were rabid, devoted, and insane fans. As the culture has shifted, music has become less central to our lives. The general public is buired beneath an avalanche of media on a daily basis. Spend time with any teenager in the US and you'll observe them listening to a wide mix of musical styles, while playing a video game, while watching TV, while chatting with "friends" on Facebook, while texting and/or talking. We split our focus into so many pieces that no one thing really gets our attention. When I was a kid, I did one thing at a time. When I listened to music, it was the only thing in the world. I studied those recordings day and night. It was hard to drag me away to get me to pay attention to anything else. Most people today, however, don't want to waste their time just listening to music when they could be busy doing twelve other things at the same time. They define themselves by other means and the music becomes just more background noise. At best, it becomes a pulse they can use to dance. Obviously, there are still some folks who do not feel this way. They love the technique, artistry and soul that makes really great music. As time passes, I grow increasingly concerned that they are becoming increasingly outnumbered. I'm also very sleepy since I just ate lunch. I'll go get some coffee.
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Rain
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 2:28 PM
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Bub I haven't seen anyone here on these forums who is a virtuoso. There's some extremely talented individuals who are very good in the genre of music they like, but to me, a true virtuoso would be someone who has mastered their instrument and can play any style. For example, the guy who could one minute be playing fiddle with Bob Wills and go sit in with the Philadelphia Orchestra the next night. Interesting. I never thought of versatility as a determining factor in virtuosity. It is a combination of skills and talent. But a virtuoso isn't necessarily a master, though a master is by definition a virtuoso. I tend to see virtuosity on the execution level. But there are other elements in making a genuine master, including versatility and taste. I've know quite a few people who could play flawlessly, brilliantly and with conviction, in other words, virtuosos, and yet, they were totally unable of convincingly adapting to a different context. I guess it's all just words anyway...
post edited by Rain - September 12, 11 2:29 PM
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Bub
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 2:45 PM
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The best guitar player I ever heard, was this quiet, withdrawn, little guy I saw one time in a cover/original band playing in a little dive in NJ. They came down from NYC. It was funny, he was kind of hiding behind the drummer. They did country, 70's rock, 80's rock. They really mixed it up a lot. The guy improvised and played some leads so fast I swear to you his fingers were a blur. Then he would change styles and make his 6 string sound like a steel guitar. I never saw or heard anything like him before or since.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 5:24 PM
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Bub I haven't seen anyone here on these forums who is a virtuoso. There's some extremely talented individuals who are very good in the genre of music they like, but to me, a true virtuoso would be someone who has mastered their instrument and can play any style. For example, the guy who could one minute be playing fiddle with Bob Wills and go sit in with the Philadelphia Orchestra the next night. So Mozart wasn't a virtuoso composer, cause he only did his own stuff, and it was all in the same musical style ?? Or Paganini? I can't consider versatility an important part in defining virtuosity. How many of the greatest instrumentalists of the last 200 years have played really different styles - like Mozart to jazz to country...Playing both, say, Beethoven and Debussy isn't such a huge stretch in my opinion, even though they're different. I think most of the ones called virtuosos have been brilliant on a very defined area of music, and the ones who have been playing this and that have not been taken so seriously.
SONAR PE 8.5.3, Asus P5B, 2,4 Ghz Dual Core, 4 Gb RAM, GF 7300, EMU 1820, Bluetube Pre - Kontakt4, Ozone, Addictive Drums, PSP Mixpack2, Melda Creative Pack, Melodyne Plugin etc. The benefit of being a middle aged amateur is the low number of years of frustration ahead of you.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 7:11 PM
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Danny Danzi BenMMusTech zungle Kalle Rantaaho kc2ine Have you noticed that todays rock music sucks? no solos whatsoever and if there is any a kid in the kindergarten could play it. Is it because people don't want to practice anymore? thinking that technology will do everything for them like sequencers, loops etc because life is too short and all that bulls$it so why waste it on practicing few hours ea day? In seventies all was different, do you remember solos of Jimmy Page, Keith Emerson, David Gilmour, Ritchie Blackmore and many more? damn music is going down .... I fully disagree. There's never been more kids playing their fingers off trying be as good as XXX XXXXX. The instruments and good teachers have never been easier to get. The ones who use technology to find shortcuts are a totally new breed of artists or "artists", they did not exist 20-30 years ago, because the technology either did not exist or was so expensive. Don't listen to the Top 20. The music you refer to is not popular at the moment, isn't it painfully obvious? The music is there, just go and find it. There' are more good instrumentalist than ever. +100 Actually this is what I was saying, arise The Digital Musician, for which I am a fully paid up member. Here you go again http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/thekillingsong here is my evidence. You guys need to read the book "The Digital Musician" by Andrew Hugil, also some have brought up different types of virtuoso, a virtuoso could be somebody who plays musical notes at a pace that we consider him or her a virtuoso and there are a couple that I could name off the top of my head: Robert Fripp and Nigal Kennady, these two virtuoso's play beautiful music with soul (because someone mentioned that a virtuoso was just a machine and could not emote). Another virtuoso could be someone who uses the studio in a way that the studio becomes an instrument and this is what I am suggesting. We get to caught up in the technical jargon. To surmise a virtuoso is not necassry someone who has great musical ability but can be a person who utilises what talent they have and exploits it so as to transform and become a virtuoso. Peace Ben Actually you missed the most important part. A virtuoso is given that name by others....you don't assume that title on your own and flaunt it on a public forum. It not only makes you sound like you're stuck on yourself, it makes for a pretty pathetic read when you post "I am a virtuoso except my instrument is the DAW". Think about that statement Ben. That means you know everything there is to know about your DAW as well as delivering the musical virtuoso goods perfectly in song. That to ME, means "you are a master". Just because you can record a bunch of instruments doesn't make you a virtuoso. You need to make the instruments sound good. Just so you don't think I'm picking on you and because you decided to flaunt your knowledge as well as your song 2 times in this forum.... With all due respect, I'd say you have quite a few more years to go before you're considered a virtuoso. If you'd like to know the opinion of someone who lives music in all areas 24/7 that also makes a living from it, here's my take. You're drums are out of time, your vocals are out of key and inaudible at times, your drum velocities are all at 127 and sound like a robot playing a drum machine and your mix is something an amateur using Sonar for the first time could muster up within their first week playing with Sonar. You have no sense of mixing, panning or placement, nor have you learned to use a compressor or EQ properly because your instruments were all over the place. Sorry, I'm just being honest and since you used your song as "your proof" I have to show where I felt "your proof" is flawed, Sir. Way too flawed to be considered a "virtuoso". Now, you could say the same thing in regards to my music and bash me into the ground. You'd be more than correct if you fired back in that respect. I'd totally accept whatever negativity you would throw at me and expect you to lash out at me in retaliation. But please keep in mind, I'm not the one saying I'm a virtuoso. I know I'm flawed.....I know there are things I suck at and I will never claim to know I know everything about a DAW or an instrument no matter how long I work on it. I work hard and try my best to learn something new each day or help a person with something and I've cried out for help on this forum and other forums many times. On a daily basis I physically play drums, guitar, piano, bass, sing and create music and people from all over the world call on me for the stuff I'm capable of doing over here. The day I let that all go to my head and call myself a virtuoso is the day I need to drink a 55 gallon drum of stfu because a virtuoso is not something I'll ever consider myself in this lifetime. If others decide to think of me in that regard, that is on them...it's not up to me to claim that title for myself. Especially if it's not true for me, which it is NOT. As I said, I can physically play numerous instruments without the need for a sequencer. That doesn't make me better than you or anyone else that can't play the instruments I can and that surely doesn't make me a virtuoso. Recording into a DAW is easy...making the stuff sound good as well as creating a good song is another animal altogether. My apologies for chiming in here in this manner, but I've been seeing you pat yourself on the back in several posts on here to where it's really getting pretty gross to read bro. If you feel in your mind that you are a virtuoso...that's all well and good, but it might be a good idea to stop plastering your heart felt emotions as well as your bachelor credentials all over the forum. It makes you sound like you have a huge ego and is an absolute drag to read. Sorry to also say this, but for what it's worth, if you're a prime example of what a virtuoso with a bachelors degree is supposed to sound like and your song is supposed to justify that....I'm glad I never attended school. I know, a bit harsh, but it's true and how I feel. You challenged me and others with your comments....which was probably your ploy to get me/others to listen to your tune. It worked, so you're a virtuoso in that department. :) But, when you post stuff like that bragging about yourself and your music and I listen to it after the hype you share about yourself, the first thing that comes to my mind is "it's your lie, tell it how ya wanna...but how about keeping it to yourself?" Belief in ones self is important. I believe in myself also. So much so if you asked me if I thought I was good, I'd tell you "yes, I think I'm pretty decent at what I do." I'd not answer "I'm a virtouso!" One shows belief, the other shows ego. There is a difference. If anything, you should be asking for help on these forums so that one day you can achieve the title of virtuoso if you want it that badly. :) -Danny Actually Danny that would be pretty lame, you have given an opinion, that's all!!! Other people have given another opinion. I only go on the offensive when somebody has been offensive to me, which you haven't. What are you hearing in terms of problems?? You mention vocals and compression, if this is one of the problems then I whole heartly agree with you but it's one of those things, the vocal is really dynamic and so I made a choice, to leave it. The vocal is a little sloppy but I can go well I delivered the vocal with commitment, this is more important than "sometimes" perfection. You have also mentioned frequency problems, if it's the acoustic guitar that has a problem, then once again I agree, I can even hear phasing at the top end but once again this track is not perfect and it's about the delivery once again. You also mention the drums being out of time, this is not true, the kicks, snares and hats are all on the beat, what you are hearing is the other instruments playing either in front or behind the beat, which if I remember correctly is a perfectly acceptable practice. You also mention the drums all being at one velocity, this is also not true, yes the drums are hit hard but that is the nature of the song plus I find a softer velocity does not work with some of SD3 kits, this is after all Bonzo's kit and I could say that Bonzo hit the drums all at one velocity. Also you have mentioned the panning, once again I have made a conscious decision to pan the track this way because of the deficiencies in the recording, I am masking stuff, this is why the bass riff and the electric guitar riff are at times little more than a rumble, also I have made a conscious decision to make the drums the main star of the peice. I know in audio engineering land all of the things I have done to the track would be considered wrong but I have decided to follow my own path, perhaps I am the fool at the beginning of my journey or perhaps I am a fool at the end of my journey. Or as Euripides once said: " "The wisest men follow there own direction" What I am saying, when it comes to music sometimes commitment is in fact an act of a virtuoso. This track is an act of a virtuoso because I am committed to the performance and the composition. Here is my best track: http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/nowandthen still not perfect but you can see and hear the massive difference between The Killing Song and Now and Then. The Killing Song was recorded over two years ago, so I have two more years of knowledge to apply to this track and that two years worth of knowledge has allowed me to finish the track something I could not have done two years ago. So I believe the act of commitment is in fact the act of a virtuoso. Ok I am sorry if I have upset people by showing a vulgar flash of ego but that is something I wont shy away from, also I am sorry if I have drifted off topic, but you guys need to lighten up, I love to stir up the ****. Also someone put me into the same boat as KCine2 or whatever their name is, their banned and I have not been banned, I have not been rude in this conversation at all. Ok on topic, where have all the virtuoso gone well some of them are still here: Fripp and May come to mind, but as someone else has pointed out music has shifted from our center of consciousness to where we are doing so many things at once it just blurs into the background. I am more interested in that and the question how do we make it relevant again?? How do we get people to invest in 0&1's? How do transmit the majik of music and it's transformative properties to the people who are starved of majik. Peace Ben
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Danny Danzi
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 7:21 PM
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Jonbuoy: Dude...thanks so much for that! Made me smile ear to ear and on the last part....I spit coffee all over the place! I can pass away peacefully knowing that one person in this world thought highly enough of me to consider me in the V category...which is incredibly awesome of you brother...thanks! Bubba: That's a great post there. I totally agree with you and will also add, I think that years ago when we were learning to play music and were into more of an instrumental base, it was more blatantly in our faces. Back in the days when concept albums got airplay and stuff like YES and Kansas were heard at any given time. There were pieces of mainstream music that inspired us to want to play a bit more technical. As we got older, got involved in other things in life, we changed, the music changed, and of course the times changes. And, what was considered "mainstream acceptable" years ago, would be frowned upon today by most of the masses. Sad how that happens. Another thing I think is important...most musicians, at least the ones I know, will pretty much use the music as a vehicle for learning and inspiration. When you get to a certain level and really start getting into your own stuff, you listen to others a bit less and concentrate on yourself a bit more. You listen to your faves for reference while you hone in on what you can do to better yourself. Of course that's the artist in me talking...then there's the music lover in me. What I loved at one time musically, I love a bit less due to being so infatuated with hook writing. As sad as this sounds, I'd rather write a hook like "Friday" with a rock/metal feel as opposed to throwing Guthrie Govan licks at people...or the fact that I've become famous amongst my peers as the guy that created "Roll Sweeps". (legato arpeggios) LOL! Kalle: Also a great post and I totally agree with you. I think (in my opinion) the term "virtuoso" has to do with being a master at *something*. I would call Eddie Van Halen a virituoso of Rock guitar for "his style". Just because he's Eddie and has been one of the most influential rock guitarists of our time doesn't make him "the best" or "the virtuoso of all things guitar". Paco or the late Segovia may have something to say about that. LOL! There's two more virtuoso's of "style". As far as someone being versatile, I think that is an added special gift. Some guys are born with the ability to jump from style to style because they have a knack of picking things up quickly as well as have the motor skills to achieve it. That doesn't mean they didn't work to do what they do, but some well seasoned musicians get that thing going on to be versatile in all styles in 20-30 years of playing....where most of us will just about be nailing our main style in that amount of time let alone several others. I guess in a nut-shell, to me the word means "someone that excels above the norm in something". That "something" can be anything that makes that individual stand out that makes people's jaws drop in a good way or a different way no matter what it is. But there must be some sort of incredible performance or aesthetics behind it that makes that trait stick out more than common folks doing the same thing would fair. :) -Danny
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ohgrant
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 7:24 PM
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OK another opinion here Dani is a virtuoso guitarist indeed. easily the best producer I've heard that uses Sonar. I listened to your tune and you sir are no virtuoso. Danny's mixes sound pro, yours do not. Sorry "Now and then", not much better. Not a horrible tune, sounds like I mixed it though. No offense.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 7:38 PM
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One other thing I forgot to add..... Now days we have to search for this stuff because we can't hope that radio is going to give something to everyone like it once did. So we have to find stuff, buy overseas, burn stuff and keep on searching. That to me, though I'm a net junkie, is still sad that I'd have to do that. The other side of the coin that I find upsetting is how people bash those that may decide to show a little flash. Right away you're labeled or frowned upon because YOUR idea of showing forth what you feel, is too fast, too flashy, to this, too that. Like the guy that listens to classical music and bashes on everything that isn't classical music and uses his style preference as a reason to bash...or the Jazz guy that thinks everyone is an idiot because most of us have diatonic ears...or the dance guy that rips apart a metal tune because it's not to his personal liking. Solo's removed from mainstream rock....I find that really sad because heck, guitar is part of what made rock what it is if you go back in time. Not only that but some of the coolest artists that can really play, never get the notoriety they truly deserve and have just about 0 airplay. Sure they have a few sales and a cult following, but it's harder for them to play out if they won't sell out a venue. So they do videos, clinics and have a career of endorsements....which is still cool, but it would be so much better if these "sleepers" could get on the air, tour big venues and at least be noticed and recognized by the masses. It's funny...if you play something off the wall to people that dig mainstream, they usually like it. You'd be surprised at what people would like if they were made aware it existed. Prime example....I teach 6 students guitar these days. That's all I have time for with my busy schedule, but 4 of them are young kids in school that weren't even aware that my hero's of guitar existed. You should have seen their jaws drop when I played them Yngwie Malmsteen. The one guy is a Kansas fan...when he heard Yngwie's version of Carry on Wayward Son, he nearly passed out from excitement. I introduced another to George Lynch because of his conviction, intense tone and incredible vibrato. These dude's didn't even know players like this existed. Most of them think chugging chords on a 7 string is all there is to rock guitar. But as soon as you turn them onto something, they love it. Another example...one of my students was listening to some station that had an 80's part of their show. He says to me "Danny, ever hear that song Turn up The Radio? That guitar player played this mean @ss solo man....can you teach it to me?" He's a guy that's into Lamb of God, Disturbed, Fuel, Chilli Peppers etc. I thought it was great he'd even be interested in soloing. It's just sad that so much cool stuff is hidden or you're forced to search the net for the stuff. It would be so much better if there were more of a variety and the world was more accepting of everthing. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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backwoods
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 8:13 PM
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Danny's musical repertoire is quite extensive. He is an accomplished songwriter and aside from his astonishing proficiency on electric guitar, he has also mastered drums, keyboards, bass, trumpet and vocals. (from DD website) Big call- but I'd have to agree with the guitar part.
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Danny Danzi
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 8:34 PM
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BenMMusTech Danny Danzi BenMMusTech zungle Kalle Rantaaho kc2ine Have you noticed that todays rock music sucks? no solos whatsoever and if there is any a kid in the kindergarten could play it. Is it because people don't want to practice anymore? thinking that technology will do everything for them like sequencers, loops etc because life is too short and all that bulls$it so why waste it on practicing few hours ea day? In seventies all was different, do you remember solos of Jimmy Page, Keith Emerson, David Gilmour, Ritchie Blackmore and many more? damn music is going down .... I fully disagree. There's never been more kids playing their fingers off trying be as good as XXX XXXXX. The instruments and good teachers have never been easier to get. The ones who use technology to find shortcuts are a totally new breed of artists or "artists", they did not exist 20-30 years ago, because the technology either did not exist or was so expensive. Don't listen to the Top 20. The music you refer to is not popular at the moment, isn't it painfully obvious? The music is there, just go and find it. There' are more good instrumentalist than ever. +100 Actually this is what I was saying, arise The Digital Musician, for which I am a fully paid up member. Here you go again http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/thekillingsong here is my evidence. You guys need to read the book "The Digital Musician" by Andrew Hugil, also some have brought up different types of virtuoso, a virtuoso could be somebody who plays musical notes at a pace that we consider him or her a virtuoso and there are a couple that I could name off the top of my head: Robert Fripp and Nigal Kennady, these two virtuoso's play beautiful music with soul (because someone mentioned that a virtuoso was just a machine and could not emote). Another virtuoso could be someone who uses the studio in a way that the studio becomes an instrument and this is what I am suggesting. We get to caught up in the technical jargon. To surmise a virtuoso is not necassry someone who has great musical ability but can be a person who utilises what talent they have and exploits it so as to transform and become a virtuoso. Peace Ben Actually you missed the most important part. A virtuoso is given that name by others....you don't assume that title on your own and flaunt it on a public forum. It not only makes you sound like you're stuck on yourself, it makes for a pretty pathetic read when you post "I am a virtuoso except my instrument is the DAW". Think about that statement Ben. That means you know everything there is to know about your DAW as well as delivering the musical virtuoso goods perfectly in song. That to ME, means "you are a master". Just because you can record a bunch of instruments doesn't make you a virtuoso. You need to make the instruments sound good. Just so you don't think I'm picking on you and because you decided to flaunt your knowledge as well as your song 2 times in this forum.... With all due respect, I'd say you have quite a few more years to go before you're considered a virtuoso. If you'd like to know the opinion of someone who lives music in all areas 24/7 that also makes a living from it, here's my take. You're drums are out of time, your vocals are out of key and inaudible at times, your drum velocities are all at 127 and sound like a robot playing a drum machine and your mix is something an amateur using Sonar for the first time could muster up within their first week playing with Sonar. You have no sense of mixing, panning or placement, nor have you learned to use a compressor or EQ properly because your instruments were all over the place. Sorry, I'm just being honest and since you used your song as "your proof" I have to show where I felt "your proof" is flawed, Sir. Way too flawed to be considered a "virtuoso". Now, you could say the same thing in regards to my music and bash me into the ground. You'd be more than correct if you fired back in that respect. I'd totally accept whatever negativity you would throw at me and expect you to lash out at me in retaliation. But please keep in mind, I'm not the one saying I'm a virtuoso. I know I'm flawed.....I know there are things I suck at and I will never claim to know I know everything about a DAW or an instrument no matter how long I work on it. I work hard and try my best to learn something new each day or help a person with something and I've cried out for help on this forum and other forums many times. On a daily basis I physically play drums, guitar, piano, bass, sing and create music and people from all over the world call on me for the stuff I'm capable of doing over here. The day I let that all go to my head and call myself a virtuoso is the day I need to drink a 55 gallon drum of stfu because a virtuoso is not something I'll ever consider myself in this lifetime. If others decide to think of me in that regard, that is on them...it's not up to me to claim that title for myself. Especially if it's not true for me, which it is NOT. As I said, I can physically play numerous instruments without the need for a sequencer. That doesn't make me better than you or anyone else that can't play the instruments I can and that surely doesn't make me a virtuoso. Recording into a DAW is easy...making the stuff sound good as well as creating a good song is another animal altogether. My apologies for chiming in here in this manner, but I've been seeing you pat yourself on the back in several posts on here to where it's really getting pretty gross to read bro. If you feel in your mind that you are a virtuoso...that's all well and good, but it might be a good idea to stop plastering your heart felt emotions as well as your bachelor credentials all over the forum. It makes you sound like you have a huge ego and is an absolute drag to read. Sorry to also say this, but for what it's worth, if you're a prime example of what a virtuoso with a bachelors degree is supposed to sound like and your song is supposed to justify that....I'm glad I never attended school. I know, a bit harsh, but it's true and how I feel. You challenged me and others with your comments....which was probably your ploy to get me/others to listen to your tune. It worked, so you're a virtuoso in that department. :) But, when you post stuff like that bragging about yourself and your music and I listen to it after the hype you share about yourself, the first thing that comes to my mind is "it's your lie, tell it how ya wanna...but how about keeping it to yourself?" Belief in ones self is important. I believe in myself also. So much so if you asked me if I thought I was good, I'd tell you "yes, I think I'm pretty decent at what I do." I'd not answer "I'm a virtouso!" One shows belief, the other shows ego. There is a difference. If anything, you should be asking for help on these forums so that one day you can achieve the title of virtuoso if you want it that badly. :) -Danny Actually Danny that would be pretty lame, you have given an opinion, that's all!!! Other people have given another opinion. I only go on the offensive when somebody has been offensive to me, which you haven't. What are you hearing in terms of problems?? You mention vocals and compression, if this is one of the problems then I whole heartly agree with you but it's one of those things, the vocal is really dynamic and so I made a choice, to leave it. The vocal is a little sloppy but I can go well I delivered the vocal with commitment, this is more important than "sometimes" perfection. You have also mentioned frequency problems, if it's the acoustic guitar that has a problem, then once again I agree, I can even hear phasing at the top end but once again this track is not perfect and it's about the delivery once again. You also mention the drums being out of time, this is not true, the kicks, snares and hats are all on the beat, what you are hearing is the other instruments playing either in front or behind the beat, which if I remember correctly is a perfectly acceptable practice. You also mention the drums all being at one velocity, this is also not true, yes the drums are hit hard but that is the nature of the song plus I find a softer velocity does not work with some of SD3 kits, this is after all Bonzo's kit and I could say that Bonzo hit the drums all at one velocity. Also you have mentioned the panning, once again I have made a conscious decision to pan the track this way because of the deficiencies in the recording, I am masking stuff, this is why the bass riff and the electric guitar riff are at times little more than a rumble, also I have made a conscious decision to make the drums the main star of the peice. I know in audio engineering land all of the things I have done to the track would be considered wrong but I have decided to follow my own path, perhaps I am the fool at the beginning of my journey or perhaps I am a fool at the end of my journey. Or as Euripides once said: " "The wisest men follow there own direction" What I am saying, when it comes to music sometimes commitment is in fact an act of a virtuoso. This track is an act of a virtuoso because I am committed to the performance and the composition. Here is my best track: http://soundcloud.com/aaudiomystiks/nowandthen still not perfect but you can see and hear the massive difference between The Killing Song and Now and Then. The Killing Song was recorded over two years ago, so I have two more years of knowledge to apply to this track and that two years worth of knowledge has allowed me to finish the track something I could not have done two years ago. So I believe the act of commitment is in fact the act of a virtuoso. Ok I am sorry if I have upset people by showing a vulgar flash of ego but that is something I wont shy away from, also I am sorry if I have drifted off topic, but you guys need to lighten up, I love to stir up the ****. Also someone put me into the same boat as KCine2 or whatever their name is, their banned and I have not been banned, I have not been rude in this conversation at all. Ok on topic, where have all the virtuoso gone well some of them are still here: Fripp and May come to mind, but as someone else has pointed out music has shifted from our center of consciousness to where we are doing so many things at once it just blurs into the background. I am more interested in that and the question how do we make it relevant again?? How do we get people to invest in 0&1's? How do transmit the majik of music and it's transformative properties to the people who are starved of majik. Peace Ben Ok Ben, I'll play along here and take you at face value...no wait, you may have to shave first...you're scarin me with that beard and smile. I'd say more lunatic than virtuoso. LOL! I'm seriouly kidding with you there....but let me play along here and try to help you out even though I should probably respond to this in your thread as to not corrupt this one. But, heck, I opened my mouth...you asked me about stuff specifically, I will not disappoint you. :) No, I admit to being a bit harsh in my reply to you and it probably wasn't a good thing for me to do. I'm sorry about that...it just seemed like you were doing a lot of bragging and was a bit...well, you know. Anyway...as for your tune... I actually didn't mind the acoustic or find it annoying. I just didn't feel the over-all eq in the song presented that of a virtuoso, that's all man. You sang pretty good in the beginning and then it sort of went all aggressive and out of key vocally..which I know it was probably supposed to. Some questionable frequencies on bass and vocals....drums too hot and not played as well as they could have been. On the drum timing, I'm clocking you in at about 116 bpm over here. When I run my click track starting it with yours, we have late hits and timing inconsistencies that appear to be more drum issues than instrument issues. On the drum velocities, this is what your drums sound like to me. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Drums%201.mp3 That's a file with velocities set for 127 across the board. Your drums have 0 dynamics and all sound like the exact same, forceful hits. If you had dynamics and velocity changes....your drum parts would sound a bit more like this: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Drums%202.mp3 Even that sounds a bit robotic but the hits are not all the same. If you REALLY worked your velocities and got a kit that was based on the amount of samples per velocity, you'd get something like this: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Drums%204.mp3 Hear the difference? Bonzo hit the drums hard, but there are different hits with different amounts of force in his playing not to mention, he never hits the same spot twice. Just about no drummer does that. Of course SD3 is limited to stuff like this which is why I don't use it. It sounds real sometimes, but the key to me is to have different velocities on different parts of the drums. Sometimes you hit a snare in the center, sometimes you rim shot it, sometimes you hit the edge...with each hit, comes a velocity or force that makes the hit what it is. The key Ben, is to adjust your velocities in phrases. For example, if you have a snare drag into a snare hit that may be a ghost of drags that leads up to it...like a dada da drap type sound....the three ghost hits are going to be somewhere along the lines of 53, 58, 67 for the ghosts and then a 115 or a 120 for the final snare whack. You may want to run your kicks at 127 if there are not doing any doubles or ghosts...but snares, cymbals and toms are very dynamic and need to be treated as such or it will instantly sound like robot-itus. LOL! Sonar has CAL files that will help you man. They have a vary velocity CAL that works wonders for stuff like this. It auto adjusts the velocities for you so you get a bit more real feel on the hits. Try it sometime...it's a life saver. :) Understood on your reason for not panning. However, the masking is so bad, it's tough to tell what you are doing and some things are completely inaudible. You also seem to have a few pressure inconsistencies with your fretting of bass and guitars...maybe this is slightly out of tune issues or maybe it's improper intonation on your instruments....but something is dissonant at times. To me, the conscious decisions you made were decisions that in my opinion, degraded the audio to the point of it not being a good representation of what someone considered a "virtuoso" would do. This is why I spoke up the way I did. I expected to hear something perfect that made my jaw drop to where I would have been the first person to high 5 you and say "ok dude, it's a bit ego to call yourself a virtuoso, but after that stellar track...I totally agree with you...simply awesome!" But unfortunately, that wasn't the case here. I guess I expected way more out of someone that would label themselves using the V word as well as correct me that it wasn't a bachelors degree, but a masters instead. So with those credentials, I was flooded with excitement like I am awaiting the next Forza Racing game for Xbox 360. LOL! When you posted the song link as an example of this virtuosity in motion, you got me to listen...but unfortunately, I felt you used way too powerful of a word to explain the song as well as your craft. It's like people using the word "love" loosely. I don't say the word unless I mean it with every ounce of my being. I don't tell those I love "luv you" I say "I love you" and mean it with my heart. Certain words are power words man. They mean different things to different people in the world. Sometimes there are language barriers. I know the UK guys used to upset me for a while until I understood that the words we say here that mean fighting words, are words they say there everyday in gest....and some of them have a completely different meaning. But the V word...man, that's just something that is extremely powerful to me. It doesn't get used around my neck of the woods loosely. Not that my neck of the woods matters more than anyone else's, but that's the point I'm trying to make. Saying that about yourself where I come from (as well as those who have also responded on the board about it) just makes a reader feel you are seriously stuck on yourself and bragging. I've seen it a few times and shrugged it off...but today it just really bothered me. So I too am sorry if I upset you in any way...but it was just getting old bro. :) At any rate, I hope the above explains a few things to you. We're all unique and different in what we do. But the day we think we are the best at something is the day we should probably ask another brother or sister for some help. :) -Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - September 12, 11 8:38 PM
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Danny Danzi
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 8:40 PM
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backwoods Danny's musical repertoire is quite extensive. He is an accomplished songwriter and aside from his astonishing proficiency on electric guitar, he has also mastered drums, keyboards, bass, trumpet and vocals. (from DD website) Big call- but I'd have to agree with the guitar part. Which was honestly not written by me but my webmistress at the time when she created my site. Scouts honor on that one. :) I'll be the first to admit I play various instruments but will also be the first to admit as I have numerous times....that I'm not proficient at any of them. All writing tools that I learned when I couldn't find the right people. Thanks for the guitar compliment though. Grant: thanks...much appreciated. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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BenMMusTech
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 8:56 PM
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hey danny no sweat i am a bull in achina shop, the track is actually 58bpm so this might be were the timing thing is coming from also i think there are at least two bars of two four. i will check out cal, i know after my bost i should perhaps be using it,perhaps. yea my instruments need to be set again. look my gift probally lies in composistion, in fact i am witing to hear back about a phd in composistion. as i say i am not really into perfection but commitment, i think perhaps this is where we are going wrong as an industry ok just my opinion. words are def majik
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BenMMusTech
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 9:00 PM
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sorry writing this on my tablet so the forum does not quite work. i wont corrupt this topic any more thanks danny. all i can say brother is i will keep trying and i will achieve the title of virtuoso, because that is my commitment to me and my work. sorry to op peace ben
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trimph1
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 9:06 PM
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mmmmmm....tonguing as applies to brass instruments...extended technique? I can trill with my tongue...and, so, I use that sometimes when playing sax....I get told that that is an extended technique....mmmmm
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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BenMMusTech
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 9:10 PM
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i ve just realized the op is banned.
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ohgrant
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 9:41 PM
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Bapu is a posting virtuoso...no?
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noldar12
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 10:08 PM
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Kalle, +1 to your comments. Agree that versatility is not part of virtuosity. For example, upright bass players tend to either be really good in jazz or really good in classical (where I fall) but not both. The thought processes involved to excell in each genre are simply radically different (note: I enjoy both musical forms). Ben, a couple comments regarding digital musicians: There is one other company's forum that I frequent a great deal: the VSL forum, a forum with a somewhat different user base than here. There have been some interesting, and sometimes heated, debates regarding "digital musicians" and I personally like the definition one person came up with, calling them "sound designers." That certainly is a skill in itself. But, IMO anyway, it is one thing to be able to combine and arrange pre-existing music loops (the central part of sound-design as it was defined), a task Sonar is specifically designed for, and to be able to create excellent mixes. It is quite another thing to play an instrument well, and yet a third thing to be able to write well (in whatever musical style(s) or genre(s) one prefers to write in. Frustration was expressed in that forum that in our current culture mixing loops and sound design often ends up being equated with composition, particularly when pre-existing loops are used (the loop material not being created by the "sound designer." To me, this ties in with at least some of the comments regarding the original topic of the thread. To become really good at anything musically, takes practice, effort, and hard work. <digression> It seems that many may prefer to take the path of least resistance, and given the devaluation of music in general, perhaps so (one could perhaps debate this as a "chicken-egg" situation). Side note: one can generally determine what a culture values by where that culture invests and/or spends its money. At least here, in the USA, the biggest investments seem to be in sports stadiums and shopping malls - the arts are (even the pop arts), at best, a very low priority. The "quality" invested in MP3's says a great deal. <end digression> In this day of everyone-doing-it-all-in-their-own-bedroom-studio, it is easy to forget that each represents an important craft, and that no one person excels in each craft. I also agree with others when commenting that being a true virtuoso is something determined by others, not ourselves. In the long run, IMO, big egos are not helpful (a lack of confidence OTOH, can be a real hinderance) - and no musical area is immune from the stereotypical "classical snob," to attitudes evident in some within the rock world.
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Jonbouy
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 10:14 PM
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ohgrant Bapu is a posting virtuoso...no? A professor of the submit button no less! He can make an Am chord by posting to four forums at once with his teeth whilst his keyboard is behind his head. (or can he?)
post edited by Jonbouy - September 12, 11 10:19 PM
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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noldar12
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 10:21 PM
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Bapu has so exceeded posting virtuosity that one is left speachless (or postless as the case may be, except when posting about his posting Bapuosity).
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Moshkiae
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Re:no more virtuosos in rock music...
September 12, 11 10:26 PM
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kc2ine Have you noticed that todays rock music sucks? no solos whatsoever and if there is any a kid in the kindergarten could play it. Is it because people don't want to practice anymore? thinking that technology will do everything for them like sequencers, loops etc because life is too short and all that bulls$it so why waste it on practicing few hours ea day? I think the technology has a lot to do with it. There are a lot of people doing DJ stuff that are not musicians, but because they have fairly good listening skills and are used to mixes, they can put together many things that sometimes sound like good music ... and it is ok ... but I'm not sure that is what "music" is about. I have no issues with the "technology" in music ... but I do when someone that is a DAW expert considers themselves a master musician ... and in the end, I really think that music will get hurt ... both classical music and other genres where the musicianship has been its defining moment in the past 75 years ... are all disappearing by pre-fab music that a lot of conglomerates are all too ready to distribute and make money from. It goes in cycles ... sooner or later there will be another "revolution" fighting against the commerciality of it all and the fact that the music many of these people are making ... has no soul whatsoever. Well, it does ... but maybe it is a robot'ic soul that we don't like or haven't met yet. And this "robot" is one of the reasons why I always tell folks to get rid of that metronome, so you can spend more time with the "music" ... and define yourself and your work better. You canuse the metronome later to be able to score the music ... but until such a time, trash it!
As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys!
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