GregGraves
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pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
Saw a Youtube video regarding fattening up vocals by detuning clones sharp/flat by 3,6,9,12 hundredths panned hard left/right and that seemed (to me) to work very well. What Sonar-compatible VST will do this? Not the transpose function. Can't find any docs for the Cakewalk Pitch Shifter, so don't know what those sliders are referring to (I.e., no units). ???
post edited by GregGraves - 2015/11/12 21:49:52
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panup
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 06:10:03
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☄ Helpfulby ohgrant 2015/11/13 13:34:50
How about using Melodyne or V-Vocal? - Clone vocal track 6 times and apply +3, -3, +6, -6, +9, -9, +12 and -12 detuning manually (select whole clip, then drag tuning up/down by mouse).
- Bounce clips.
- Add EQ high shelf to boost treble.
- Pan +3 left, -3 right, -6 left, +6 right, +9 left, -9 right, -12 left, +12 right
- Create New Aux track.
- Set cloned vocal tracks outputs to the new Aux track.
- Add some compression and finetuning EQ to the Aux track.
- Set Aux track output to Vocal bus.
- Create track folder.
- Move all the new tracks to the folder.
- Now you can mute and solo vocal fattening tracks by Track Folder mute and solo buttons.
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GregGraves
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 08:27:51
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Panup you rock. Thanks much for the trouble putting that step-by-step together. I'm printing it out for future employment. Thanks.
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Anderton
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 09:02:18
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Another option is to use the Loop Construction View to do varispeed-type techniques, then DSP time-stretching to restore the desired length. Week 20 of Friday's Tip of the Week tells how to do fine-tuning with the LCV. Since fine-tuning using this method will change the length, ctrl+click on the clip end and drag to edit the length. You also might find the Week 44 tip useful, because it describes using Take Lanes to get huge massed vocal sounds.
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sharke
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 09:29:03
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☄ Helpfulby ohgrant 2015/11/13 13:35:29
If you're looking for an easy way to do this automatically then the Waves Doubler is good.
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panup
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 09:39:57
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If you have full Melodyne, you may also want to tweak formants up/down to get more difference to the doubled tracks. As sharke mentioned, Waves Doubler is great plugin to do this automatically.
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Beepster
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 10:00:26
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1/100th of a semitone is a "cent". So you know on guitar tuners and pitch tools that have a "cents" readout/adjustment? That's what those numbers/increments represent. Any pitch shifter that allows adjustments in cents will work. IIRC the DSP Transpose function allows for adjustments in cents but yeah, Melodyne should be able to as well and perhaps the Loop Constructor in the Pitch options (I don't recall if it adjusts by cents). I have not thoroughly messed with those tools though so I may be wrong about one or all but you are definitely looking for an "adjust pitch by cents" parameter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29 Cheers.
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mettelus
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/11/13 12:25:42
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If "blindly" shifting pitch on an entire track to that fine degree of resolution, Audacity would be another solution that is free (for anyone reading without Melodyne). The transpose algorithm in SONAR is limited to whole number semitones, but should be revisited as the desire to detune audio by slight amounts it fairly common (i.e., the "432Hz crowd").
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GregGraves
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 04:08:32
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I downloaded the demo of Waves Doubler, intending to purchase while still on sale. But then I said to myself, "Self, why don't you experiment before forking out more money during Christmas?" So I did the following (building on Panup's procedure) and frankly I can't tell the difference between the Waves Doubler and this approach. Can you? Vocal Doubling Using Cakewalk Pitchshifter - If necessary, Melodyne or Autotune vocal track.
- Clone dry vocal track and rename “VocFat”. Add Cakewalk Pitchshifter. Adjust delay time of Pitchshifter to 15ms, and route output to new Aux track “FatAux”
- Pan hard left, and Clone 4 times using “Repititions” option. On last clone, Pan hard right, adjust delay time to 10 ms, and clone 3 more times. You now have 8 clones routed to Aux track “Fat”, left delayed 15ms and right 10ms.
- Pitchshift left clones +3, +6, +9, +12 and right clones negative.
- Add compression and EQ high shelf to boost treble to the Fat Aux track.
- Move Fat Aux to top of VocFat tracks and set Aux track output to Vocal bus.
- Create track folder. Select all fattening tracks, right click and “move to folder”.
- Use FatAux fader to adjust amount.
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williamcopper
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 05:08:59
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a couple or five of things --- 1) if there is anything but a solo line, then you need to consider the other voices 2) 'detune' by a cent will probably not be heard 3) the best 'detunes' are those that take into account the harmony --- if your target melody is on a note that is the third of a major triad, go for detune down significantly -- 4) if your target melody is on a note that is the fifth of a major triad, detune up a very small amount --- 5) if you are on a minor chord and your target melody is on the third detune up significantly. Greg, not to be unkind, but that procedure is wonky wacky and woeful.
post edited by williamcopper - 2015/12/23 05:23:04
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Kylotan
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 06:08:24
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williamcopper 3) the best 'detunes' are those that take into account the harmony --- if your target melody is on a note that is the third of a major triad, go for detune down significantly -- 4) if your target melody is on a note that is the fifth of a major triad, detune up a very small amount --- 5) if you are on a minor chord and your target melody is on the third detune up significantly.
I assume you're suggesting these directions to put the 'de'tuned voice closer to just intonation? I'd never thought about this before but it does make a lot of sense. But is it practical to do this on a per-note basis? I wouldn't expect so.
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williamcopper
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 06:22:41
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Well ... think of it this way: is it practical to rely on musicians' ears? Surely. Way better, anyway, than anything that is basically random, digital, and non-musical.
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cparmerlee
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 08:39:42
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williamcopper 3) the best 'detunes' are those that take into account the harmony --- if your target melody is on a note that is the third of a major triad, go for detune down significantly -- 4) if your target melody is on a note that is the fifth of a major triad, detune up a very small amount --- 5) if you are on a minor chord and your target melody is on the third detune up significantly.
But that isn't really a "fattening" process, is it? What you are describing is "just intonation", the principle that the most "in tune" pitches are not what an equal tempered tuner says is "in tune". If I am not mistaken, you can tell Melodyne to apply just intonation for the key center you are working in. Harmonies will really pop when they are lined up with "just intonation". This is why Barbersop quartets sound different from other vocal groups. They really work those harmonies for just intonation. As I understand it, the "fattening" effect is really the opposite of getting the pitch clean and perfectly in tune. Fattening actually spreads out the pitch as if a bunch of tone deaf musicians are going at it (which might be exactly the effect one wants to achieve.)
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Kylotan
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 11:13:52
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williamcopper: I think you have a different definition of 'practical' to me! Normally, detuning or adding some sort of doubling or chorus is a single effect you apply to a whole track. You're suggesting applying different pitch shifts to different notes. I don't doubt that it might sound better in some circumstances but I also expect it will take 100x longer. Is it worth it? Maybe if you're tweaking a chorus of a pop song that has to be completely perfect. cparmerlee: If a second track is added and the pitch is slightly different to the original then it will perform the purpose of fattening up the sound. Moving it in the direction of just intonation rather than in an arbitrary direction improves the chance that it'll sound good. If you need multiple detuned voices then maybe it would work well to cluster them between the equal temperament pitch and the just intonation pitch. Again, I'm not sure whether it's worth the effort though.
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Anderton
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 11:56:58
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cparmerlee
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 12:10:15
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Kylotan You're suggesting applying different pitch shifts to different notes. I don't doubt that it might sound better in some circumstances but I also expect it will take 100x longer. Is it worth it?
Melodyne does this automatically. You can fix an entire track with one mouse swipe. In Melodyne, identity the root scale, then select Tuning - Just intervals. Then click on Correct Pitch. Done. But again, just intonation and fattening are two different things -- almost the opposite of one another. Just intonation makes the harmonics (overtones) of the triad line up arithmetically, such that each note amplifies the next. That's how barbershop groups get their chords to pop out. Fattening goes the opposite direction, making the pitch center LESS clear. In the old days, we simply double tracked (Recorded each take twice) or literally flanged the track (ping-pong the track, riding your thumb on the flange of the tape to create intonation variations.)
post edited by cparmerlee - 2015/12/23 12:28:05
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bitflipper
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 12:23:09
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The difference between the manual method and using Waves Doubler is that the latter lets you modulate the shift amount, and modulate each "doubled" copy separately. This is supposed to mimic the random interplay of double-tracked vocals. It doesn't. Real vocals are neither random nor sinewave-modulated, and this is no more realistic than randomly moving drum hits in an effort to "humanize" a drum track. That doesn't mean there's no place for the effect; just recognize that it's a gimmick and decide if the performance benefits from it or not. I'd urge you to not adopt it as part of your default vocal treatment. What the pitch shift does is generate intermodulation distortion. Normally, IMD is considered a bad thing, but for vocals it can work as long as the effect is kept subtle. IM distortion results in new frequencies being injected into the vocal, comprised of the sum and difference frequencies between the two parts. Perceptually, we hear those new high frequencies as a glossy sheen atop the vocal. As long as we can't zero in on them (because they're low volume and moving around) they aren't perceived as separate tones, much the way reverb modulation prevents us from hearing individual resonances. I've gotten both good and ugh-puke results from this method. Depends on the vocal, and how natural-sounding you want it to be. If you find that your 1-cent (1 cent = 1% or 1/100th of a semitone) adjustment is too subtle, start raising the pitch amount one cent at a time until you can clearly hear the effect. Then back it off by 1 cent. You may find the sweet spot at 3 cents or even 7. I would also suggest a band-pass filter on the cloned-and-shifted parts. Most algorithms introduce artifacts that are mostly in the high frequencies, and low frequencies don't benefit from it and only get muddy. Treat your "doubled" tracks' EQ like you would a reverb send. As with a reverb send, it may also help to route your doubled parts to a separate bus so you can easily set their levels relative to the main vocal. Most of the time, you'll want them 3 to 12 dB down. Have fun!
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mixmkr
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 12:50:27
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He needs that 30 yr old 910 Harmonizer! If the Boz Imperial Delay wasn't so goofy expensive (I guess cheap compared to the 910 hardware), I'd recommend that too.
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Beepster
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/23 13:41:42
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bitflipper The difference between the manual method and using Waves Doubler is that the latter lets you modulate the shift amount, and modulate each "doubled" copy separately. This is supposed to mimic the random interplay of double-tracked vocals. It doesn't. Real vocals are neither random nor sinewave-modulated, and this is no more realistic than randomly moving drum hits in an effort to "humanize" a drum track. That doesn't mean there's no place for the effect; just recognize that it's a gimmick and decide if the performance benefits from it or not. I'd urge you to not adopt it as part of your default vocal treatment. What the pitch shift does is generate intermodulation distortion. Normally, IMD is considered a bad thing, but for vocals it can work as long as the effect is kept subtle. IM distortion results in new frequencies being injected into the vocal, comprised of the sum and difference frequencies between the two parts. Perceptually, we hear those new high frequencies as a glossy sheen atop the vocal. As long as we can't zero in on them (because they're low volume and moving around) they aren't perceived as separate tones, much the way reverb modulation prevents us from hearing individual resonances. I've gotten both good and ugh-puke results from this method. Depends on the vocal, and how natural-sounding you want it to be. If you find that your 1-cent (1 cent = 1% or 1/100th of a semitone) adjustment is too subtle, start raising the pitch amount one cent at a time until you can clearly hear the effect. Then back it off by 1 cent. You may find the sweet spot at 3 cents or even 7. I would also suggest a band-pass filter on the cloned-and-shifted parts. Most algorithms introduce artifacts that are mostly in the high frequencies, and low frequencies don't benefit from it and only get muddy. Treat your "doubled" tracks' EQ like you would a reverb send. As with a reverb send, it may also help to route your doubled parts to a separate bus so you can easily set their levels relative to the main vocal. Most of the time, you'll want them 3 to 12 dB down. Have fun!
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jpetersen
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Re: pitch shift by 1/100th of semitone VST?
2015/12/24 11:47:05
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@bit: Rightclick-save :) Thanks!
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