gelybar
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plugin automation delay compensation problem
Hi,
In X1, when there are many plugins on the master bus, the plugin automation on the individual tracks seems to be broken. It doesn't act in time, it's a bit early, everything happens ahead of its time. Automating other things like track volume or pan seems to work fine. Any ideas?
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Wave
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/25 00:58:08
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Check the Automation in the clips pane to make sure its happening where you want it to on the timeline. If it is, I would then redraw or snapshot to compensate for the earliness. 
Cheers, Wave
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/25 04:10:17
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Wave
Check the Automation in the clips pane to make sure its happening where you want it to on the timeline. If it is, I would then redraw or snapshot to compensate for the earliness.
Thanks, that might work with the broader strokes, but when fine-tuning a vocal track for example, your solution is far too tedious. I need to be able to draw detailed envelopes and constantly check the outcome during the process. (Besides, snapshots don't work with plugins.)
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bitflipper
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/25 13:34:24
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PDC is probably not the appropriate term here, since it refers to compensation for a plugin's internal latency and has nothing to do with automation directly. Your problem is more likely a result of PDC working correctly, delaying the audio as needed to compensate for the effect chain's internal latency.
You'd normally not notice such a lag between automation and audio, but I'm guessing your chain includes some high-latency plugins, perhaps a convolution reverb or linear-phase equalizer. Just a guess, but you may be able to resolve it by rearranging the sequence of effects so that the long-latency plugins are after the one you're automating.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/25 14:39:04
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bitflipper
Just a guess, but you may be able to resolve it by rearranging the sequence of effects so that the long-latency plugins are after the one you're automating.
The problem is it's probably the master bus effect chain that's causing the problem. What you are suggesting makes sense but not in this particular situation.
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bitflipper
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/25 18:03:28
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Can you give specifics or a screenshot? Exactly what plugins are you using on the bus, and what's being automated?
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 07:36:52
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I'm actually trying to automate GGain, but it's the same with any other plugins. Nothing else in the bin on that track. All the other tracks are archived for this test. On the master bus I have several plugins from different companies, a linear phase EQ, a bus compressor, an exciter, a spatial processor and a frequency analyzer. All of them seem to contribute to this problem which can reach 300-400 ms difference between the actual automation event and its corresponding node on the envelope. So when I try to attenuate a sibilant, it affects the vowel before.
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John
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 08:03:35
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You could adjust the automation to compensate for the delay or try automating the volume control and not use GGain.
There's also trim on each channel that can be automated.
One thing to help a DAW do its job is finding a way to do something that uses as few plugins as one can get away with.
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Wave
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 08:24:51
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gelybar
I'm actually trying to automate GGain, but it's the same with any other plugins. Nothing else in the bin on that track. All the other tracks are archived for this test.
On the master bus I have several plugins from different companies, a linear phase EQ, a bus compressor, an exciter, a spatial processor and a frequency analyzer.
All of them seem to contribute to this problem which can reach 300-400 ms difference between the actual automation event and its corresponding node on the envelope. So when I try to attenuate a sibilant, it affects the vowel before.
So your saying you've tried to isolate it to just one plugin (by deleting the others) and it is still happening? It only happens to the tracks before the bus and it only happens to plugins, no matter what order or what plugin (even if its just one plugin) and it doesn't even matter which one? You could probably rule out the plugins. Sounds to me like its Sonar. Now does this only happen to you or everybody (and your just the first to notice)? I don't know I'm not at the point of working on automation yet, but you would think that some other's would notice. Maybe it's a Bug or a corrupted Project, corrupted Sonar or even your operating system. These are things we need to eliminate out of the equation. I hope that I've given you some help, I wish that I could do more but I'm just not able to test if this is happening to me at this moment. Maybe someone else will test and chime in. Please let us know your results.
post edited by Wave - 2012/04/26 08:33:51
Cheers, Wave
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 08:27:49
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John
You could adjust the automation to compensate for the delay or try automating the volume control and not use GGain.
There's also trim on each channel that can be automated.
One thing to help a DAW do its job is finding a way to do something that uses as few plugins as one can get away with.
I'm using GGain for this test only because it's very simple and easy on the CPU. But I'd like to automate many other things that I cannot do using the track's faders. That's what automation is for. And I believe that my testing setup (only 1 track and 7 plugins altogether) is much less complicated or demanding than the average mixing project. I wonder if anyone could recreate this problem.
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John
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 08:52:36
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I'm not following you very well Gelybar. If its a test why the thread?
Also what is CPU intensive about automating the volume? Ggain has to be more CPU intensive than things built in already. Again I simply don't understand.
Than again it wont be the first time.
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bitflipper
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 10:35:52
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This is among the most baffling reports I've ever read on this forum.
I am Mr. Automation; most of my projects look like a multicolored plate of spaghetti. But I have never observed automation timing errors. Then again, for all my reliance on automation it's never occurred to me to use a gain plugin for sibilance mitigation.
I'm starting to wonder if there have always been automation timing inaccuracies and no one's ever noticed. I can't think of any instance where anyone would notice, except for the specific case at hand.
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John
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 10:44:47
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Bit thank you thank you thank you! I was wondering about my own ability to read a post. If you are a little baffled than I am relieved!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 10:51:27
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I think if there was a problem with automation timing, one of us would have noticed it by now.
I'm almost as linguini like as Dave, and sometimes I'll put a fade which MUST be at zero -INF a tick or so from a nasty click.
It should be said in passing that some 3rd party plugs, especially freebies, aren't coded as robustly as they could be.
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John
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/26 10:55:03
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It should be said in passing that some 3rd party plugs, especially freebies, aren't coded as robustly as they could be. Very true but I question the need for a third party solution for a nonexistent need. But than I simply don't fully understand the OP.
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/27 09:47:04
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I have a real problem with an actual project, so this is not just a test, I was simply trying to rule out most of the possible causes.
Anyway, this is what I've found out.
Luckily, only the plugins' GUI is out of sync, the actual changes in the sound are all on time regardless of the overall latency. I was editing a very detailed envelope when I noticed this weird behavior and my eyes tricked me into thinking that something was wrong with the sound as well.
So thank you all for your input, it really helped me to figure it out. Now I can go on with my project, but I still think that this is a problem. It's distracting and the visual feedback from the GUI becomes useless.
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John
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/27 10:09:28
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Again you don't need the VST to change gain. Its a problem that doesn't need to be a problem.
Both gain (trim) and volume can be automated.
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bitflipper
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/27 10:40:31
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Makes much more sense now. I have often seen lags in plugins' UI updates. This is because audio processing takes priority over video refreshes in a DAW, so when things get really busy it's not uncommon to see the video become sluggish. It's just a matter of managing a finite resource - the CPU - such that the most important threads get serviced first, sometimes at the expense of less-critical threads.
I just saw an example of this last night. I was clicking the Hold button in SPAN to freeze the spectral display on a vocal note, in an attempt to pinpoint the frequency of a resonance heard on a single syllable. It was frustrating because the display would freeze a fraction of a second after clicking the button, making it look as though I was missing the critical moment. But the displayed frequency peak was indeed the offending note, as confirmed by a remedial notch filter that cured the problem.
I guess the moral of the story is not to rely on visual feedback. Somewhat of a recurring theme, no?
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/27 11:38:16
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John
Again you don't need the VST to change gain. Its a problem that doesn't need to be a problem.
Both gain (trim) and volume can be automated.
John, it's a common practice to automate a gain plugin instead of the track fader so you can put it anywhere in your fx chain, like before a compressor where it yields different results. Plus, I frequently automate other plugins as well.
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/04/27 11:41:39
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bitflipper
I guess the moral of the story is not to rely on visual feedback. Somewhat of a recurring theme, no?
You're right. Still, it would be great to have this fixed. It must be possible since Sonar's GUI doesn't have this problem.
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gelybar
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/05/01 10:38:48
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bitflipper
Makes much more sense now. I have often seen lags in plugins' UI updates. This is because audio processing takes priority over video refreshes in a DAW, so when things get really busy it's not uncommon to see the video become sluggish.
One last interesting thing: in my case it's the sound that's lagging relative to the GUI changes. In fact, when I hit play, the knobs start moving before playback actually begins.
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bitflipper
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/05/01 11:16:26
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That is interesting. What I would do is strip the project down to bare bones, so it contains the absolute minimal components to demonstrate the phenomenon, and send it to CW. It's possible nothing will come of it, but they may find it interesting too and offer at least an explanation if not a workaround.
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ericzang
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/01 12:17:51
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I also experience this problem with X1 and 8.5 and have confirmed in my case that it is truly happening and not only the GUI. It is with the same situation of high latency plugins and/or many medium latency plugs. I've done a simple test: draw a track volume envelope to mute a snare hit, for example. Without plugs it does it perfectly. Add several high latency plugs (nebula, ozone maximizer mode III is good for testing this, though of course I don't use it for mixing) and the automation is not muting in the correct place. I did this same test in Reaper x64, automation stayed in sync with as many ozones as my cpu could handle. Fortunately on bounce down or export there is not a problem, but this is quite a problem while mixing of course.
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ericzang
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/03 09:03:57
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Also, same with me, the GUI updates before the corresponding sound is heard.
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Resonant Order
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/03 10:15:27
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Is your latency for your interface set lower than the latency that the plugs induce?
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Blogman
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/03 11:24:32
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You might try going to your configuration file properties page and changing "Enable Device Output Latency Compensation" to 'false' (or 0 in the notepad file). See if that helps or not. Otherwise, make sure whatever bus your metronome is fed to doesn't have any FX on it. (if you have metronome going to Bus B, and strangely something like 'perfect space' in bus b fx bin, and then if have the 'pdc' button hit, all of the automation will be off)
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ericzang
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/08 23:30:45
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Thanks for the suggestions. My interface (octa-capture) latency is set to maximum at 2048 samples. Not sure how to find out the latency of the plugs, will look into that. I changed the above aud.ini parameter to 0, but no change in behavior. On my recent test just now, I noticed that track volume automation does not have the problem, but clip gain automation does.
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ericzang
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/10 18:27:27
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Yes, the latency caused by the plugins is greater than my maximum interface latency of 2048.
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Resonant Order
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/10 18:55:20
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I always increase my latency while mixing/mastering to avoid latency problems.
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ericzang
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Re:plugin automation delay compensation problem
2012/06/14 18:36:34
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Yes, my latency is set to maximum, but the plugin latencies are greater. I wonder if any of you also have this problem? I have just sent an email to tech support, pasted below. If it is not peculiar to my system, then you may be able to easily reproduce the problem as described below. ------------ Hello, I have found that high latency plugins cause playback of automation to not work or be inaccurate/out of sync. You can download a simple test project which demonstrates the problem: http://ericzang.com/temp/...n%20latency%20test.cwb I have inserted 10 instances of the LP64-EQ, but actually only 3 instances are necessary for the track volume envelope to become inaccurate. Bypass the effects bin to hear the proper result of the automation. Enable the bin and the automation will not work properly. Bouncing the track to another produces the proper result with the clip gain envelope, but the volume envelope still does not work. My interface asio latency on the octa-capture is set to maximum at 2048, and at 96 the result is the same. Is there a setting that may resolve this problem? And if so, will this apply to Sonar 8.5, as I am still finishing a project there. Thank you very much, Eric
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