Helpful Replyprobably another dumb question: re: midi channels

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michael diemer
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2017/04/17 17:10:57 (permalink)

probably another dumb question: re: midi channels

I use both Sonar (8.5) and Reaper. when I import a project from Sonar to Reaper, everything imports fine, including all the channel events in Event List. But when I record new midi in Reaper, or drag notes from one inst to another, or copy/cut/paste from one one to another, the channel number gets reset to 1. 
My question is, does this matter? Do I need to change all the numbers to the "correct" channel number. 
Let me give an example: I decide to move some notes from the flutes to the oboes. flutes are on ch 1, oboes on ch 2. After import, all the ch numbers are correct, all the flute events have ch 1, all the oboe events have ch 2. but then, I make changes, as above. The new notes on the oboes will have ch 1, instead of 2. This applies to any insts I may copy to. If I copy some viola notes (ch 14) to the cellos (ch 15), the notes in the cello will have ch 14, when they should have ch 15. I can change them to 15, so they match all the other cello notes, but of course it's an extra step.
I realize this is a question more for the Reaper forum, and I have a thread there, but after about 20 responses, the issue is still unresolved. I also have a thread on Sonudsonline, no replies there yet. I'm posting here because I know the knowledge level here is deep. Also, it's a question which applies to all DAW's, and therefore would be helpful to anyone encountering this problem.
 
To summarize, does it really matter what the channels are in Event List? If they get changed, does it matter? I'm not talking about the routing between your tracks, keyboard and synths, that of course matters a great deal. but these synth channels appear to be just virtual channels, so am I just obsessing needlessly?
 

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#1
Studioguy1
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/17 17:34:41 (permalink)
Keep in mind that you choose midi channels to record on or from and choose midi channels to play.  They do NOT have to be the same.  I have to assume that you are recording on midi channel 1 so that is the way your instrument is set up.  However, the channel you play on will have to be re-set otherwise you will have everything on channel 1.

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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/17 20:43:39 (permalink)
Thanks for the reply, Studio Guy (did it again, I keep rhyming lately). My keyboard has no controls, it's extremely primitive (I do plan to upgrade). So yes, I think that's why when I record the channel comes out as 1. Of course, when I set up, say, the Play synth for my East West instruments, I set a channel on Play, so it communicates with my DAW. But you're suggesting that when the channel flips to something else, it may matter? There doesn't seem to be any difference in the sound if the channel in Event List changes from 14 to 15. I mean, the pan doesn't change, or volume or velocity. Those channels just seem somewhat arbitrary to me.
 
I have tried to find some definitive guide to midi channels, and have spent some time reading, but I still am confused about the different channel types. There's the channel my keyboard plays on, which is always 1. Then there's the channel you set on synth for each inst, which corresponds to the channels you set in your DAW. These have to be the same. Then there's these channels that show up in Event List. for some reason, Reaper doesn't seem to care about these, it flips them (actually, it resets to 1 if I'm recording, and it keeps the channel of the "donor" inst if I copy notes to another inst). I don't know if this is a  flaw in Reaper, or they have figured out it doesn't matter. 

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#3
Cactus Music
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/17 22:06:46 (permalink)
I would read the manual for your keyboard. All keyboards I've ever used can send on any channel. 
If not, I don't know anything about Reaper, but every DAW I've played with also has a channel select for incoming data. I always set Sonar to Omni but you can select any channel. 
 

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tlw
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/17 22:09:32 (permalink)
The channel notes events are on will matter a great deal if you are using a multi-timbral instrument, software or hardware, which is playing different sounds (or 'instruments' if it's a General Midi module or plugin) and separates which note/event applies to which sound by MIDI channel.

For example, let's say you load a synth and tell it to play everything on channel 1 as 'piano' and channel 2 as 'violin'. Any MIDI it receives on channel 1 will control just the piano, everything on channel 2 the violin and it will ignire every other channel. So if attention isn't paid to what channel notes and controller events are on things might well not work as you expect.

What makes things both complicated and simple in Sonar is that Sonar can receive MIDI from a controller on, say, channel 1 and seamlessly redirect it to a synth using channel, say 2, another synth on 3, another on 4 and so on while keeping each synth's MIDI separate and tidy. Sonar is acting as a complex MIDI router. Additionally the MIDI channel a MIDI track is set to determines the channel it outputs on, not the one(s) it receives on.

Mixed up MIDI channels within the same track generally aren't a good idea and can come back to bite you in all kinds of ways later on. Especially if you have or get any hardware that uses MIDI.

I can't comment about Reaper's behaviour, I don't use it.

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tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/18 00:27:44 (permalink)
When playing back in Sonar the recorded individual channel notes do not matter at all. They are overidden by the channel output setting of the track they are placed on. 

Bruce.
 
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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/18 00:54:43 (permalink)
Thsnks Cactus and TIW. 
Cactus Music
I would read the manual for your keyboard. All keyboards I've ever used can send on any channel. 
If not, I don't know anything about Reaper, but every DAW I've played with also has a channel select for incoming data. I always set Sonar to Omni but you can select any channel. 
 


My keyboard transmits on 1. I can set Reaper's routing to either Source or 1, it doesn't seem to make a difference. I also put in a send to the Vsti the inst is on, and the specific channel it's on, on the Vsti. Those don't change, otherwise no sound. I'm talking about the channel each individual event is assigned when recording midi, or moving clips around. I'm thinking those channels don't matter. But I keep "correcting" them anyway just in case. Honestly, I might as well, as I usually have to go in and adjust velocities anyway.
 
TIW: Yeah, that's my fear, that somewhere along the line something is going to get weird, like suddenly the pan changes, or volume or velocity. so far, that doesn't seem to be happening. but it seems logical that it could.

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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/18 01:02:59 (permalink)
tenfoot
When playing back in Sonar the recorded individual channel notes do not matter at all. They are overidden by the channel output setting of the track they are placed on. 


Bruce, that's what I think. I think the channels in the event list are artifacts that get, as you say, overridden by the routing settings. You're the first person anywhere that sees it this way. I think the Reaper devs, who obviously know a whole more about this stuff than I do, didn't build in a "fix" because it doesn't matter. A solution in search of a problem. Hopefully, this is the case. Now, if I can just break myself of the compulsion to keep "fixing" them...Perhaps more St. Johnswort is needed...

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#8
tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/18 03:21:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby michael diemer 2017/04/18 04:30:14
tlw
The channel notes events are on will matter a great deal if you are using a multi-timbral instrument, software or hardware, which is playing different sounds (or 'instruments' if it's a General Midi module or plugin) and separates which note/event applies to which sound by MIDI channel.




Again - when working in Sonar - no they don't.  Multitimbral synths will recieve channel data assigned to the output channel of the track the data is on. They simply do not matter at all! The only exception is if you are saving and loading midi file type 0 files where all data is on a single track rather than type 1, in which case you are living in 1982 and probably not using Sonar:)
 
No harm in changing them all of course if you are young and carefree. For an old bloke like me it's pointless use of time I would never get back

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tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/18 08:56:18 (permalink)
michael diemer
I think the Reaper devs, who obviously know a whole more about this stuff than I do, didn't build in a "fix" because it doesn't matter. A solution in search of a problem. 



 
I think you are right Michael. It seems to be a legacy of the midi spec.

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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/18 19:53:03 (permalink)
I'm still a little confused. Here's my current understanding of the situation: The channels that you assign to the insts. on your multitimbral synths do matter as they are linked to your tracks, right? So, you output your flute track to the channel on your synth that is your flute. I always put that on channel. I put oboes on 2, and so on. Each inst. track is output-ed to one of the 16 slots in my synth, corresponding to the insts. I have loaded. The result is all my insts. play the tracks/notes assigned to them. I can also play each inst with my midi keyboard, and record midi as well. So, the channels we are talking about here do matter, right?
 
The channels that I don't think matter are the ones listed in the Event List (EL). Each note and CC event in the EL will have a channel number. In Sonar, those numbers always stay the same for a given inst, regardless of what you do. You can copy from one inst to another, drag notes from one to another, and in Sonar, the channels "don't follow." The channels will change to the new inst's channel assignment. So, I move a flute part to the oboes, the channels in the oboe's EL will be 2, not 1 (the channel for the flutes - keeping with the example above.).
 
In Reaper however, things are different. When you move notes from one inst to another, the channels do follow, so the flute part I move to the oboe will still have channel 1 in the EL. Making me think that I need to change them, as those notes now are on the oboe. But if I'm understanding Bruce correctly, no, it's a waste of time, they don't matter, they are overridden by the routing assignments. 
 
Is this what you're saying, Bruce? 
 
 
 
 

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#11
tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 01:09:05 (permalink)
michael diemer
I'm still a little confused. Here's my current understanding of the situation: The channels that you assign to the insts. on your multitimbral synths do matter as they are linked to your tracks, right? So, you output your flute track to the channel on your synth that is your flute. I always put that on channel. I put oboes on 2, and so on. Each inst. track is output-ed to one of the 16 slots in my synth, corresponding to the insts. I have loaded. The result is all my insts. play the tracks/notes assigned to them. I can also play each inst with my midi keyboard, and record midi as well. So, the channels we are talking about here do matter, right?



Yes - midi channels need to be assigned so that your tracks line up with your sounds.
 
 
michael diemer
 
The channels that I don't think matter are the ones listed in the Event List (EL). Each note and CC event in the EL will have a channel number. In Sonar, those numbers always stay the same for a given inst, regardless of what you do. You can copy from one inst to another, drag notes from one to another, and in Sonar, the channels "don't follow." The channels will change to the new inst's channel assignment. So, I move a flute part to the oboes, the channels in the oboe's EL will be 2, not 1 (the channel for the flutes - keeping with the example above.).
 



 
Right again Michael:)
 
michael diemer
 
In Reaper however, things are different. When you move notes from one inst to another, the channels do follow, so the flute part I move to the oboe will still have channel 1 in the EL. Making me think that I need to change them, as those notes now are on the oboe. But if I'm understanding Bruce correctly, no, it's a waste of time, they don't matter, they are overridden by the routing assignments. 
 
Is this what you're saying, Bruce? 
 



I dont use reaper, but they are overidden in Sonar and you never need to change them manually. If you save the project as a Cakewalk project, the midi notes remain as the channel number they were originally recorded on and the channel outputs override that as discussed. I just ran a quick export test (though I am on platinum). If you save the project in Sonar as a midi file (choose type1 in the dialogue), then close the project and open the midi file you just saved you will notice that all of the channel numbers HAVE changed to the respective channels they are on, so that irrepective of what program you open it in the channel assignments will be correct.
 
As far as exporting from Reaper it is simple to test. When you move parts from a track assigned to one sound to a track assigned to another, does it play the correct sound (ie, the instrument assigned to the new track) irrespective of what the event view lists? If so, without changing anything export the midi file and open it in Sonar. If the sounds show up on the correct tracks (irrespective of what the event viewer indicates about the individual notes) then all is well!
 

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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 04:00:33 (permalink)
Thanks again Bruce, and great idea for the test. I'll give that a whirl and let you know. In the meantime, I have been ignoring the Event List channels, not changing them, and everything sounds normal.

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#13
tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 10:26:44 (permalink)
You know on reflection I can see no logical reason Sonar shouldn't change those individual midi note channel numbers to the track midi channel output setting as soon as the data is moved or recorded onto a track. It would certainly make editing in the event list less confusing.

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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 16:58:31 (permalink)
I thought Sonar did that, it's Reaper that doesn't. Or did you mean Reaper?

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#15
SquireBum
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 18:21:55 (permalink)
Let's simplify the discussion:
 
1.  Both SONAR and the other DAW you reference stores each MIDI event with the initial recorded channel or the channel that is found in the imported MIDI file.  This initial MIDI channel will display in the Event List or in the MIDI Properties dialog in both DAWs.
 
2.  When SONAR saves a MIDI file using File>Save As, it overwrites the stored MIDI event channel with any track channel assignment made in the Inspector unless the track channel is set to None.
 
3.  When File> Export Project MIDI is performed in the other DAW, it does not overwrite the stored MIDI event channel with the MIDI channel assigned in the Send/Receive dialog.
 
As everyone has stated, the MIDI channels in an imported MIDI file do not matter if the application that is playing the file allows you to reassign the channel of the track(s) containing the MIDI events through internal routing (i.e. the SONAR Inspector or the other DAW's Send/Receive dialog).
 
You only have to be concerned with the MIDI Event channel if the device or application that is playing the file cannot reassign track channels.  For example, I still have a Roland SoundBrush that plays MIDI files on a floppy disk and has no internal routing capabilities.
 
Hope this helps,
-- Ron
 
 

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tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 19:40:44 (permalink)
michael diemer
I thought Sonar did that, it's Reaper that doesn't. Or did you mean Reaper?


Sonar retains the original note channel number of the device it was recorded from unless you export the project as a midi file (remember - it is meaningless as it is overidden by the channel output setting of the Sonar track it is recorded onto, so there is no need to worry about it). My point is that it would be simpler from an event list point of view if it was given the channel number of the receiving tracks output setting immediately.

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slartabartfast
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/19 21:07:12 (permalink)
The MIDI spec was written when only real instruments were available for play, connected via a relatively slow serial protocol. In order to control multiple instruments the MIDI Thru protocol allows you to daisy chain multiple instruments along the same continuous connection. In order to define which instrument will play which note, the instrument/sound source is set to receive on a single channel. To avoid breaks in transmission by trying to send all of the notes for one instrument before sending notes intended for other instruments, it is necessary to interleave the note messages. And in order to activate the intended instrument it is necessary to label each note message with the destination channel. A dumb sequencer that just delivers sequential notes from a MIDI file needs to have the notes assigned to channel numbers in that situation. The channel messages in the data stream would appear in the event view or another MIDI parser with each note assigned to the appropriate channel.
 
A track based sequencer like SONAR can assign all of the notes to the individual track's channel, and then deliver them labeled with the appropriate channel as they are encountered (cross the now time) in playback creating the interleaved notes strung along the data stream to the MIDI cable on the fly. The output to the MIDI cable is going to have each note's channel label appropriately assigned in this situation. The advantage of having all of the notes in a given track assigned to the same channel are obvious in that situation, since editing any note in the track affects the same instrument, but everything gets sorted out when all tracks are played together as a mix. It is advantageous in that situation not to move the per note channel assignment from one track to another, since the effect of moving/copying a note to a different track is almost always because you want it played on a different instrument/output. For the same reason importing a MIDI file into a single track, as opposed to importing it into the sequencer as a whole and creating and splitting it into tracks based on their existing channel number, would generally be done because you intended all of the notes to be played from that single track to the assigned instrument. 
 
Within a given DAW the actual communication between the sequencer and the virtual instruments assigned to a track, while they may contain data in MIDI format for compatibility, are likely not being transmitted by the standard MIDI transfer protocol. Commands can be delivered orders of magnitude faster, and processed outside of the strict sequence that would be required to activate daisy chained real instruments.
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tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/20 01:36:17 (permalink)
Thanks slartabartfast. Great insight!

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michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/20 02:47:51 (permalink)
Thanks also Squire Ron., and double scoop to bart for the detailed history of midi, that really puts it in perspective. Like I said on another thread recently, the wisdom in this place is amazing. It's why I stay in touch. Sometimes problems arise that are generic across DAWS, and the knowledge base here is in a class by itself. Thanks so much, guys, you're the best.

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#20
williamcopper
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/20 23:09:08 (permalink)
I've posted this before:  a sonar CAL program to set all the selected midi events to any chosen midi channel.   It doesn' much matter EXCEPT when you are using the PRV and viewing a controller in the controller pain:  then, you are restricted to viewing one controller on one midi channel.    Unfortunately, the same controller on a different midi channel will still affect your work, but it will be invisible.   So, long story short, be sure you know the midi channel of all the controllers in a track.  
 
The CAL script (save in your Cakewalk Content\Sonar Platinum\CAL Scripts directory): 
------------------
;; set_channel.cal  Set Midi Channel for selected events.
;;

(do
    (include "need20.cal")    ; Require version 2.0 or higher of CAL

    (int new_chan 1)    ; New Midi Channel number
    (int i 0)        ; index for moving through

    (getInt new_chan "New Midi Channel: " 1 16 )
        (-= new_chan 1)

    (forEachEvent
        (do
                (= Event.Chan new_chan )                              
                (++ i) ; this counts
        )
    )
       
    (pause "Adjusted " i " channel events!" )
)


#21
tenfoot
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/04/21 00:55:01 (permalink)
Thanks William! The redundant midi event ch number can on occasion be an unnecessary confusion when working in event lists as well.

Bruce.
 
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#22
michael diemer
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Re: probably another dumb question: re: midi channels 2017/08/12 21:29:09 (permalink)
Update on this thread: I decided to correct all the channel assignments in Event List (in Reaper) as I near completion of piece I'm working on. I did this because I thought I was hearing the clarinets on the right, when they should be on the left. To my surprise,  correcting the  channels fixed this. Furthermore, the piece sounds distinctly different now. I will need to correct volumes, as pans have obviously changed. In other words, since not bothering about "correct" channels anymore, I've been mixing wrong. Now, with "correct" channels reestablished, I will need to remix everything.

So, it looks like it does matter which channel things are on. To refresh, I'm talking here about when you copy/cut paste material from one inst. to another. Reaper gets the channels wrong, and you have to correct it manually. This thread came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter, and that is the assumption I've been operating under. However, I now have empirical evidence (the best kind) that IT DOES matter. 
 
I guy on the East West forum said that it doesn't matter, except when the track inst. is sent to "all channels" (in Reaper, this is called "source." I have two choices when setting up an inst. I can send it to Source or Channel 1. I usually send it to Source. This could be what is causing the problem. Maybe I should send everything to channel 1?

michael diemer
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#23
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