sharke
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"Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
I've always been impressed by the ability of songwriters in "popular" styles - whether that be rock, pop, country, metal or whatever - to write songs which incorporate harmonic and rhythmic elements outside of the usual "predictable" chord progressions and rhythms, whilst remaining accessible and writing the kind of thing non-musical people can sing or whistle along to without difficulty. The Beatles were great at it of course, and Steely Dan comes to mind. Stevie Wonder, Joni Mitchell, another two. I'm not talking about modern jazz, classical, prog rock or any other styles which go out of their way to sound esoteric and unusual. Just catchy tunes which twist and turn and modulate in usual ways but which still remain accessible and catchy. I live for music like this. Two that immediately spring to mind are from Radiohead, "Knives Out" and "The Pyramid Song." Knives Out uses pretty standard chord types (major, minor, m7, m6 etc) but modulates in interesting ways - it's both dark and disturbing yet immediately catchy, to my ears anyway. The Pyramid Song has very beautiful chords which aren't that unusual, but the rhythm of the song is very unusual whilst still being the kind of thing you can nod your head to. Would be interested to hear of other examples. I'm constantly trying to incorporate usual musical elements into my own music without sounding "nerdy," and it's hard!
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jb101
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 09:51:28
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"Turn It On Again", by Genesis. Catchy song, but lots of odd meters. Apart from the fact that the main riff is in 13/4, there are lots of other odd bars - 5/4, 3/4 etc. What always impressed me was how they made it sound so "straight", mainly thanks to Phil's drumming. I could talk about the devices etc. used in this song for hours, but I won't.
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sharke
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 10:10:05
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Yes Turn It On Again is a great example, instantly recognizable but very odd meter.
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michaelhanson
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 10:18:51
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Beatles did a lot of this type of stuff. Time signature changes happen in a lot of their songs, example: "All You Need Is Love". The main verse pattern contains a total of 29 beats, split into two 7/4 measures, a single bar of 8/4, followed by a one bar return of 7/4 before repeating the pattern. The chorus, however, maintains a steady 4/4 beat with the exception of the last bar of 6/4 (on the lyric 'love is all you need'). The prominent cello line draws attention to this departure from pop-single normality,
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sharke
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 10:34:10
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Some of the Beatles stuff has a lot in common with folk music in the way the meter changes to fit the words. You'll hear folk singers adding and removing bars when it suits them, sometimes on a whim, sometimes to fit a lyric that wouldn't otherwise fit. The great singer/guitar player Martin Carthy (from whom Paul Simon stole his arrangement of Scarborough Fair) once maintained that his music was in 1/1 time.
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jamesg1213
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 11:25:37
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'Solisbury Hill' is another, very sing-along-able, but in 7/4. Likewise Sting's 'I Hung My Head' which is in 9/8. I recall from a documentary that he did have problems getting the Memphis Horns to play in the right places though.
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craigb
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 12:54:05
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Just because the song is "accessible," doesn't necessarily mean it's legal! HTH.
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bapu
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 14:02:09
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Can't all songs just be broken down into series of 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16? Yeah, I'm a bazz player.
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jamesg1213
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 15:09:21
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'Take Me Out' by Franz Ferdinand does something quite unusual at 0:53, almost like they stitched two different songs together.
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Rain
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 15:59:26
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I dig that stuff. Even something as simplistic as Nirvana's About a Girl which is all Em-G, but then shifts to a C#-F#. Very simple, but it sort of throws you off a bit at first. Rhythmically, I always preferred the opposite - that is, that any odd time should be integrated so that the average listener doesn't even notice. Most people have no idea what 7/4 is, and yet they all follow through Pink Floyd's Money. To me, that's the ultimate goal. As mentioned, the Beatles were masters at that. Led Zeppelin also had a few good ones, like The Crunge. Sometimes, that carelessness for time signature can be pushed farther - (Have you ever been to) Electric Ladyland. I never even bothered to count that one it just seems to ride in Hendrix's wake... The intro to SRV's Wall of Denial - another one I never bothered to count, could very well be a straight 4 oddly organized, at any rate it's spicier than your average 4/4 - I love playing that riff, it's so groovy.
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Rain
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 16:10:22
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On a related note, one thing that changed for me when I started working with a DAW instead of working with musician is that I tend to stick to 4/4 when writing, partly subconsciously I guess. Back in the days, I'd let the drummer figure out a way to write a solid backbeat for my songs. As such, I have songs that I've been wanting to record for years but just can't because I can't play or program those drums parts. Covers are a different story.
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dubdisciple
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 16:45:32
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Dave Brubeck made a career of wonderfully composed odd time signature songs.
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dubdisciple
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 16:48:04
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In a more current vein, despie being a world class narcissistic a-hole, Kanye West has occassionally pulled out a 6/8 rhythm or two. Kind of impressive in a genre so heavily dominated by 4/4.
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bapu
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 16:53:59
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Rain Rhythmically, I always preferred the opposite - that is, that any odd time should be integrated so that the average listener doesn't even notice. Most people have no idea what 7/4 is, and yet they all follow through Pink Floyd's Money. To me, that's the ultimate goal.
Not the same TS but Jethro Tull's Living In The Past is another where your non-muso knows not what's going on but can effectively nod along too.
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mumpcake
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 17:13:04
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1901 by Phoenix - the verse and chorus are pretty similar but the pre-chorus completely shakes things up. A lot of Vampire Weekend's stuff tends to have rhythms taken from African and Latin sources.
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dmbaer
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 17:53:44
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This is nothing new. Pucinni wrote several of the world's most beloved operas of all time, like La Boheme. His music usually sounds straightforward and accessible, but if you perform it, you realize just how deeply complex it really is under the surface. I suspect that rock musicians who do covers of some favorites also discover the unexpected complexity when learning to perform pieces. Maybe some of the Beatles songs are structurally complex, but they rarely seem so when just casually listening. And maybe that's exactly what makes a great composer: taking the non-obvious and unexpected and making it seem instantly accessible.
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sharke
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 19:05:28
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Rain I dig that stuff. Even something as simplistic as Nirvana's About a Girl which is all Em-G, but then shifts to a C#-F#. Very simple, but it sort of throws you off a bit at first.
Nirvana are a great example in general. Madness had some pretty quirky chord progressions and some quite involved arrangements, considering they were very much a "fun" band. Here's one: The Kinks, Autumn Almanac.
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sharke
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 19:06:12
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And who could forget....Queen! Seems like one of the most obvious examples.
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sharke
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/04 19:12:41
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Here's another one I always liked, Carrie by Cliff Richard. Fair enough the guy has a reputation of being a sex symbol for the over 70's, but I really like this song. The chords in the chorus have a nice Steely Dan-style twist, always nice to hear some sophisticated harmony in a pop song.
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Moshkito
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/05 13:04:29
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Hi, I don't know music intimately like you folks do, but one of the bands that was best at changing times and still continuing, in my book, was Amon Duul 2. Another band that was very tough on time changes and combinations was Nektar in their best period. I don't see it as a big deal, I just see it as the fact that rock/pop musicians are not advanced enough to play around with other things that have been a part of music history since the beginning of the 20th century. Even Terry Riley, had several things going at the same time, many of them using different time elements, albeit I thought they were mathematically matched to make it easier on the ear. Guru Guru in the early days with Ax Gernrich was also a terrific off the cuff time and such, and Mani Neumeier used to say that he never plays with the bass guitar ... he only plays with and against the guitarist ... and you could see that again when he toured with that Japanese thrash band! I just think that (at times) we're too concerned with intellectualizing something that is not particularly worth discussing within a true/meaningful musical context ... but I will accept that I do not know music as far as you guys do from a playing standpoint!
Music is not about notes and chords! My poem is not about the computer or monitor or letters! It's about how I was able to translate it from my insides!
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sharke
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/05 14:18:17
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Moshkito Hi, I don't know music intimately like you folks do, but one of the bands that was best at changing times and still continuing, in my book, was Amon Duul 2. Another band that was very tough on time changes and combinations was Nektar in their best period. I don't see it as a big deal, I just see it as the fact that rock/pop musicians are not advanced enough to play around with other things that have been a part of music history since the beginning of the 20th century. Even Terry Riley, had several things going at the same time, many of them using different time elements, albeit I thought they were mathematically matched to make it easier on the ear. Guru Guru in the early days with Ax Gernrich was also a terrific off the cuff time and such, and Mani Neumeier used to say that he never plays with the bass guitar ... he only plays with and against the guitarist ... and you could see that again when he toured with that Japanese thrash band! I just think that (at times) we're too concerned with intellectualizing something that is not particularly worth discussing within a true/meaningful musical context ... but I will accept that I do not know music as far as you guys do from a playing standpoint!
I think you're probably reading too much into it. It's really quite simple - there clearly ARE rock/pop musicians who are advanced enough to play around with sophisticated musical ideas, and their genius is in writing technically sophisticated music which is accessible to the masses. As much as I love esoteric musicians, I don't think that many of them have the talent to turn their virtuosity into something which is both "popular" sounding and musically advanced.
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/05 14:27:54
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I liked Tool's Schism as an example of a complex rhythmic pattern with a melody that works well with the changes. It has an ethereal quality that seems to float over the complexity of the drum/bass lines. Zepplin had some great changing meter moments due largely to Bonham's ability to create a groove rather than just play a part. Soundgarden used some unusual tuning to create the desired mood and feel. Prog rock bands obviously live on complex time signatures and odd chord choices. Unfortunately, the melodic quality sometimes suffers as a result. There are a lot of bands with technical proficiency in complex arrangements and timing, but there's an art to making it seem melodic and effortless.
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jamesg1213
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/05 14:42:35
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sharke
I think you're probably reading too much into it. It's really quite simple - there clearly ARE rock/pop musicians who are advanced enough to play around with sophisticated musical ideas, and their genius is in writing technically sophisticated music which is accessible to the masses. As much as I love esoteric musicians, I don't think that many of them have the talent to turn their virtuosity into something which is both "popular" sounding and musically advanced.
Yep, Steely Dan are masters of it. From 'The Royal Scam' onwards, that's some of the most sophisticated 'popular' music ever (or so far). Elvis Costello came close on occasion though, so did Squeeze.
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jamesg1213
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/05 14:44:51
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UbiquitousBubba Prog rock bands obviously live on complex time signatures and odd chord choices. Unfortunately, the melodic quality sometimes suffers as a result. There are a lot of bands with technical proficiency in complex arrangements and timing, but there's an art to making it seem melodic and effortless.
Here's one that I think fits the bill;
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Beepster
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/05 15:21:04
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I was happy to see Nirvana mentioned. Kurt's poppier stuff was definitely quirky (of course) while being "accessible". I think Townsend was quite good at this and an early influence for later artists. He however did it from a musically analytical background whereas Kurt more or less just played what felt right without really thinking it out. It's funny hearing about how he came up with lyrics too. He chalked it up to laziness. He'd have a song together but was dragging his ass on lyrics so would just pull dumb crap out of his butt that fit the music. Everyone tries to find some deep meaning to it but it really is mostly just dumb stuff that fit in the groove. It does show a naturally artistic heart though if that's just his brainfarts.
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craigb
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/06 02:53:31
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How about the Police and Message In A Bottle?
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Beepster
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/06 13:57:39
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Not much of a Sting fanatic but he (and the Police) were very good with the appealing progressional quirkiness. Good call.
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bapu
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/06 14:23:14
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Beepster so would just pull dumb crap out of his butt that fit the music. Everyone tries to find some deep meaning to it but it really is mostly just dumb stuff that fit in the groove. It does show a naturally artistic heart though if that's just his brainfarts.
Can you say Michael Stipe?
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Magic Russ
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/06 14:31:58
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Beepster Not much of a Sting fanatic but he (and the Police) were very good with the appealing progressional quirkiness. Good call.
Of course. They gave us the "Roxanne Chord" (something like a Cm13 ?). Not many other chords are named after a band/song. ("Hendrix", "Hard Day's Night", and not much else). For unique chords, also a shout out to Squeeze, as "Pulling Mussels from the Shell" has another of those chords that you aren't likely to hear anyplace else. Coldplay's "Clocks" had a rhythm you didn't hear a lot before that song came out.
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Beepster
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Re: "Accessible" songs that feature unusual chord and/or rhythmic elements
2015/02/06 14:37:30
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That dude's got some issues. Same with the guy from Tool but I definitely groove more on Tool weirdness than "Shiny Happy People". I think one of the things I like most about Nirvana lyrics is they are almost completely devoid of politics yet manage to still be edgy/making a social statement in some bizarro way. Very strange little man.
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