panup
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"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
Limiters are marketed to you with phrases like "you get instant radio ready sound" etc... But what actually is "radio ready"? Use brickwall limiters sparingly if you want to make your mix sound good on air. Each radio station has an audio processor including band pass filter, automatic gain control, stereo width enhancer, EQ, 4-6 band compressor and limiter. You don't need to push loudness yourself because radio does the final mastering anyway. The more limiter you use, the worse it will sound on the radio. You can verify volume differences between classic and modern rock from any rock radio station. Classic CCR, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and ABBA albums have modest RMS values but they are as loud on the radio as any modern rock/metal/pop song. A balanced mix is radio ready. Excess bass or treble is bad for radio. Not too wide stereo width. Mono compatibility should be checked. Limiter is not necessarily needed. Mix does not become loud by limiting but by arranging. Too busy mix can't breath and it will sound lifeless after all radio processing but if mix is dynamic and open, even the radio processor can't kill it entirely. There is a myth that radio processor leaves hyper compressed material as is but that's not true. Read this if you don't believe me: What Happens to My Recording When it’s Played on the Radio? http://www.orban.com/support/orban/techtopics/Appdx_Radio_Ready_The_Truth_1.3.pdf http://omniaaudio.com/downloads/white-papers/what-happens-to-my-recording-when-it's-played-on-the-radio-frank-foti-robert-orban-june-2001.pdf "iTunes ready" is different subject - mixes must be loud or people may thing there's something wrong in the song. Correct me if I'm wrong. There's enough false information in the web already...
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Guitarhacker
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/22 16:52:51
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I have always understood Radio Ready to be much much more than simply the compressed level of the recording.
To me Radio Ready or Broadcast Quality refers more to the performance and the mix being right...or professional sounding.
Instruments all in tune, singer on key and sounding like a pro, instruments balanced in the mix properly, and yes, even the levels being up to the general level of commercial recordings so one doesn't have to grab the volume knob from one song to the next. It also means that when your homegrown recording plays in rotation, the average listener will not be able to easily pick it out as "homegrown".
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/22 18:08:54
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I thought radio ready meant the song arrived at radio stations by courier: 
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stevec
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/22 19:17:58
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Hmm... Mike's Clear Channel theory might have something going for it...
(did I write that out loud?)
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Guitarhacker
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/22 19:45:48
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Payola.... I thought that was illegal..... at least that's what you read in the books about the mizik biz.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Muskee
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/22 19:55:47
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Hey noobs
kick back and listen
Biggies'
very respectfully
have the floor.
Headucation, humor's welcome
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/23 04:18:00
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codamedia
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/23 08:55:52
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Panup said:
Correct me if I'm wrong. There's enough false information in the web already... As far as I am concerned, there is nothing to correct  The loudness war should never be applied during the final mix of the song - it should only be introduced in the mastering stage, with the target audience in mind. The final mix should retain as much dynamic range as possible. Once you have a great 2 track mix (complete with dynamic range) you can prepare it for each target. - A radio release should retain a lot of dynamic range - since it the station will provide it's own compression/limiting.
- Any MP3 release (ie: iTunes) should have enough limiting applied to compete with other music in your category. It has to stand up - or it likely won't get purchased.
- A CD Release (although a dying art) should reflect your exact intentions for loudness vs dynamic range. With CD's becoming obsolete in 2012, I am not sure what will happen here. I hope artists will release two digital copies, the MP3 (ie iTunes - squashed to death mix) for the masses, and a much higher quality version that applies the intended amount of compression/limiting.
Just my 2 cents. PS: Mikes photo of implied payola is unfortunately very true! It might be a little more subtle than that - but the end result is the same.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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bitflipper
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/23 13:31:55
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Try this experiment. Record a song off the radio that you already own on CD. Import the two versions into SONAR and A/B them. Of course, the radio version will be somewhat band-limited, but you can eliminate that variable by filtering the CD version to match.
The differences will not always be dramatic, but they will be obvious. Listen in particular to the percussive elements.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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digitalboy
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/23 15:04:33
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codamedia
The loudness war should never be applied during the final mix of the song - it should only be introduced in the mastering stage, with the target audience in mind. The final mix should retain as much dynamic range as possible.
+1 The loudness war just makes the music less dynamic and gives us listener fatigue... If you want the music louder - use a volume control ! That's what they are there for 
Sorry - I don't use Autotune :)
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batsbrew
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/23 16:16:22
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"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key? absolutely not. radio stations, have their own limiters. if you over limit your master, you will HATE HATE HATE the way it sounds on the radio. in fact, if you give them a completely unmastered, but exceptionally well-executed mix, it will slay everything else they'll play in front and behind it.
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Beat Poet
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/23 16:32:59
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"Radio ready" is probably just a little buzz word to get gullible people to buy the limiters . . . subliminally it suggests that buying one is another rung up the ladder to getting on radio.
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bitflipper
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/24 14:13:11
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"Radio ready" is probably just a little buzz word to get gullible people to buy the limiters . . . subliminally it suggests that buying one is another rung up the ladder to getting on radio. Bingo. I have never seen or heard the term "radio ready" used in any context other than as a marketing term by some clueless salesman. Certainly no legitimate mastering engineer has ever used it except with tongue in cheek.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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BigJGTR
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/26 16:51:36
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is there a way to set an effects chain that could replicate the same Settings as any radio station? So as to preview your masters claiming they are radio ready?
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Middleman
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/26 17:09:25
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Yes, put an EQ, Compressor and limiter on a separate master buss. This is done by many. Adjust to taste.
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Guitarhacker
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/26 19:00:51
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bitflipper
"Radio ready" is probably just a little buzz word to get gullible people to buy the limiters . . . subliminally it suggests that buying one is another rung up the ladder to getting on radio.
Bingo. I have never seen or heard the term "radio ready" used in any context other than as a marketing term by some clueless salesman. Certainly no legitimate mastering engineer has ever used it except with tongue in cheek.
In the world of songwriters it has a different meaning. It means a song that is ready to be played on the radio just like it is. No second recording, the mix is right, levels are there, the musicianship and vocals are all top quality.... The days of "demo recordings" where someone else will record the song again better is pretty much gone. Everyone from the libraries to the Nashville publishers wants the music to be "radio ready" or another term is "Broadcast Quality" . IMHO.... just throwing a limiter on a bad mix will not make it radio ready.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Middleman
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/26 20:11:32
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I feel radio ready doesn't necessarily need to pertain to the thumbs up or down attributes of a song. That moves more into what is a hit and what is not. A poorly arranged song, even poorly performed can be radio ready from the perspective of balance, transient control, EQ, compression and loudness. It can be unimpressive overall as a song or performance but sonically be in the ball park to a hit song. Is that good? It doesn't really matter except to the people whose names are attached and whose careers will be influenced by it. Now they probably wont' go on to fame or fortune but the engineer who did his best might have provided a radio ready product. It's just not ever going to be popular or revenue generating.
Radio ready in the sense that you are trying to achieve a commercially competitive product has another meaning. It means you really focused on lyrics, arrangement, instrument interaction, rhythm, scale, key, performance and, if you know your mics, you kind of EQd things during recording. Apply the the balance, transient control, compression and loudness controls to this effort and you have something that is entirely different. It's radio ready and commercially viable. It may still be the B side of your album because all that work doesn't always equate to a hit. You have to add something else for a hit which is inspired genius and a good production team. Payola may be involved as well.
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Philip
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 00:43:39
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... I'll try to 'seriously dribble' with you all ... if thats OK: Unfortunately: Limiters don't make things radio-ready or living-room-ready ... but do the opposite ... Per Bat and Katz ... Fortunately: Limiters make songs 'car-ready' and 'head-phone' ready ... and/or where we listen the most. If 'traditional' MEs just understood the neurotic truth: that radios are not the main listening device anymore for kids. And just why radios remain the paradigm for many MEs is beyond me. Kids will generally hit the car stereo mp3 player or ipod as the main listening device. My latest song "Trouble in the Hood II" was ME'd to radio perfection, but failed on the highways ... where things really matter. In the car, Katz seems to suggest everyone to precariously play volume-jocky ... or have volume automation within a car-stereo. 1) The truth is, radio listening is ideal in cars ... because everything is so wonderfully hyper-compressed. The gel is excellent in the car and outside at work-places. 2) There is a weird perversion ... where Katz would have us uncompress our dynamics to allow the radio to compress them. 3) Conclusion: Request that your ME make both: -- A widely dynamic 'radio-studio' version for make-believe -- A hyper-compressed 'car' version for reality ... ie., for highway listening, real life advertising, dancing, roller skating, etc. -- Else be especially prepared to hyper-compress your/my timid radio version ... especially for rock, pop, and dance genres ... where the gel really matters ... in both the low end and the upper details. ... or you/I risk becoming perceived as that bashful neurotic dude ... who never gets his kick or bass to rule the streets or dance floor. ... even though the music rocks in the studio, 'church', 'theater', 'living room', etc. ... the same song sucks on your/my car stereo and/or amidst life's more ambient settings. Jeff Evans seems obviously correct: You can make it just as loud and sonic .... even more so. (Just not with Ozone or Boost11) You need the PSP Xenon or the Slate limiter, depending on your genre. Pro MEs use these. Katz and Evans, specifically, use the Xenon, iirc. Others use the Slate, at this time. (Indeed, I post-mastered my pro-master "Trouble in the Hood II" ... using the Slate ... before submitting it to songs forum ... because the awesome radio-studio master was bashful on the streets and dance-floor. Are any of us still pro-mastering like they did in the 70's, or worse yet ... the 50's and 40's, etc., ... LOL! I guess there's a happy medium somewhere, but I'll probably start requesting 2 pro-masters instead of 1 (finances pending, hahahaha)
post edited by Philip - 2012/01/27 01:15:45
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Guitarhacker
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 08:30:59
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A short test for is it radio ready?
Place 5 songs in random order in a CD burner..... insert one of your songs that you believe to be radio ready in that list but not as the first or second song. Play the CD for someone else who has never heard your song before.
Assuming all songs are the same genre, can your friend easily pick your original song out of the list? If so, it's probably not radio ready.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SongCraft
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 12:29:45
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Radio stations use processors in front of the transmitter, it's primary function is peak modulation control to regulatory requirements. But not all radio station are equal.... Very few stations use a simple peak limiter, most use a chain of processors to more accurately control the peaks whilst obtaining maximum loudness - of course to be louder than competitor stations. DOH!!  Unfortunately what usually occurs is some/slight distortion, this is often attributed (not necessarily caused) by indie and major releases that have not treated the top end of the mix/master with consideration to radio processing; too much top-end and your music may sound distorted on radio but like I said; not all radio stations are equal.... Thereby depending on the station's budget and equipment used the results can vary from OK to horrible. IMO - the 'real test' is to (1) always check the top-end and (2) make double or quadruple sure you have no clipping or even the slightest clipping anywhere in the project because the slightest clipping may likely be more noticeable when put through radio processing. As for the rest of the mix and mastering?... sorry, don't ask - that's another BOOK worth of 2,000 pages - too much to discuss here. IMO - ultimately; (1) send another mix/master to Radio Stations, (2) have the top-end treated more-so specifically for radio. (3) allow more headroom in the 'mix' -12 to -6 prior to mastering is OK. (4) 'less dynamic processing overall' on the master -3 reduction with main output peak at -0.3 is more than enough!
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Middleman
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 13:40:15
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Ok, gotta ask the question. How many here really listen to radio for music? I would say less than 10% of music lovers consume music through the radio. Just saying. The term should be changed to say, commercially ready.
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SongCraft
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 15:14:43
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Middleman
Ok, gotta ask the question. How many here really listen to radio for music? I would say less than 10% of music lovers consume music through the radio. Just saying. The term should be changed to say, commercially ready.
When there's nothing on cable/satellite TV my wife and I will tune-in to Sirius Radio stations, mostly my wife does quite often and she loves music, particularly oldies stations; 1960-1970. Sirius Radio is also widely available in cars - either that and/or MP3/.Wav Players. I guess a lot of new cars have a Sirius option (no pun intended)! I had a band manager who was also a very popular Radio DJ, occasionally I use to hang-out at the station but sometimes when he was suppose to be on-air he was surfing at the beach instead - how? he recorded his program including news and advert spots, thereby to the audience it seemed so *ahem* 'live'. The guy had a crazy sense of humor; I mean seriously where would you rather be... at work or at the beach?
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michaelhanson
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 16:03:42
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I gave up on the radio years ago. I got so tired of hearing the same 20 songs, which they feel like I should like, being played over and over. Nothing new, everything sounds alike. I am constantly amazed at the quality of work on our own Songs Forum. I have often thought it would be cool if Cakewalk had a station with music created using Cakewalk products.
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batsbrew
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 16:16:15
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you apparently listen to the wrong radio.
plus, with satellite, you can get any station playing any kind of music you like.
sounds like you're talking about FM car radio, who listens to that any more these days!
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Danny Danzi
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 16:55:28
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Philip
... I'll try to 'seriously dribble' with you all ... if thats OK:
Unfortunately: Limiters don't make things radio-ready or living-room-ready ... but do the opposite ... Per Bat and Katz ...
Fortunately: Limiters make songs 'car-ready' and 'head-phone' ready ... and/or where we listen the most.
If 'traditional' MEs just understood the neurotic truth: that radios are not the main listening device anymore for kids. And just why radios remain the paradigm for many MEs is beyond me. Kids will generally hit the car stereo mp3 player or ipod as the main listening device.
My latest song "Trouble in the Hood II" was ME'd to radio perfection, but failed on the highways ... where things really matter.
In the car, Katz seems to suggest everyone to precariously play volume-jocky ... or have volume automation within a car-stereo.
1) The truth is, radio listening is ideal in cars ... because everything is so wonderfully hyper-compressed. The gel is excellent in the car and outside at work-places.
2) There is a weird perversion ... where Katz would have us uncompress our dynamics to allow the radio to compress them.
3) Conclusion: Request that your ME make both:
-- A widely dynamic 'radio-studio' version for make-believe
-- A hyper-compressed 'car' version for reality ... ie., for highway listening, real life advertising, dancing, roller skating, etc.
-- Else be especially prepared to hyper-compress your/my timid radio version ... especially for rock, pop, and dance genres ... where the gel really matters ... in both the low end and the upper details.
... or you/I risk becoming perceived as that bashful neurotic dude ... who never gets his kick or bass to rule the streets or dance floor.
... even though the music rocks in the studio, 'church', 'theater', 'living room', etc. ... the same song sucks on your/my car stereo and/or amidst life's more ambient settings.
Jeff Evans seems obviously correct: You can make it just as loud and sonic .... even more so. (Just not with Ozone or Boost11)
You need the PSP Xenon or the Slate limiter, depending on your genre. Pro MEs use these. Katz and Evans, specifically, use the Xenon, iirc. Others use the Slate, at this time.
(Indeed, I post-mastered my pro-master "Trouble in the Hood II" ... using the Slate ... before submitting it to songs forum ... because the awesome radio-studio master was bashful on the streets and dance-floor.
Are any of us still pro-mastering like they did in the 70's, or worse yet ... the 50's and 40's, etc., ... LOL!
I guess there's a happy medium somewhere, but I'll probably start requesting 2 pro-masters instead of 1 (finances pending, hahahaha)
One thing to keep in mind....just because an ME masters something for you to his/her ears doesn't mean it will be perfect for your ears. This is why we have "fixes". :) I can always add a bit more bass to something and still keep it sane...but you have to let me know if you need a little more of something. See, sometimes the rumble you are looking for may not be the rumble that sounds good in an ME's studio. So he by default, (in this case me) won't add that sort of thing in unless you ask. But at least when I add it, it will be the right rumble. Next time we run into this issue, just let me know brother. I can always accommodate what you need even if it's not something I would do myself. When I hear a little rumble on this end that sounds like mud, I'm not going to add that in unless you specifically ask for it for which I'd find a happy medium that doesn't degrade the song yet gives you the kick your looking for. For example, in your last mix of Trouble II, it sounds a bit too bassy to me which someone else had mentioned they heard as well. That doesn't make me and that person right or wrong...it just says that on our systems, the bass you added was a bit too much. At the end of the day, your happiness is all that matters. If I master something for you that needs a bit more kick, just tell me and I'll take care of it for you. You get 2 fixes plus the initial master...so we'll definitely get it right sooner or later. If you need me to remaster that song for you with a bit more kick, let me know and I'll take care of it for you. :) The last I heard when I did that tune for you....you were completely happy with it. So I didn't really know the mix "failed on the highways". I'm sorry about that...truly. Let me know next time and I'll fix whatever you need. :) -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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guitartrek
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 18:54:21
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Philip
.
You need the PSP Xenon or the Slate limiter, depending on your genre. Pro MEs use these. Katz and Evans, specifically, use the Xenon, iirc. Others use the Slate, at this time.
Philip - Is the Slate limiter used more for the Rock Genre? Which limiter is for which genre?
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ChuckC
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 18:59:39
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MakeShift
I gave up on the radio years ago. I got so tired of hearing the same 20 songs, which they feel like I should like, being played over and over. Nothing new, everything sounds alike. I am constantly amazed at the quality of work on our own Songs Forum. I have often thought it would be cool if Cakewalk had a station with music created using Cakewalk products.
I too cannot freaking stand the Fm Radio stations! Though I end up listening a good bit as I am in my truck for many hours a day. Same 5-20 songs over and over... and they play follow the leader all the time too. What I mean is if you have 2 let's say rock stations in your area and one of them starts playing the latest Chili Peppers song that you've been beaten with for the last 2 weeks, when you flip over to the other station & often times their next song up (it may not be the same song) will be the chili peppers... Then they play the new one from Coldplay or something so you flip back to the station and they are playing that too! WTF!!?!??!?! Completely off topic from the OP-- but what is with the New Rock stations playing Coldplay, black eye'd pees and the like? There's nothing wrong with those bands but that is POP or even adult contemporary (the newst coldplay track is anyway) Get off my damn rock station!! Yeah it's new but it's NOT ROCK! Ya never hear a classic rock station play Zepplin, the doors, and then go to the Bee gee's do ya?! (probably spelled that wrong but you get my point). Rant over.... I'm out! Sorry to hijack.
ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's, lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's, DI's, Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t. http://www.everythingiam.net/ http://www.stormroomstudios.com Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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michaelhanson
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 19:04:05
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Trying not to high jack either, but I was off listening to Bats Face Book link while he was responding and quite frankly, I found it way better than FM radio. I would rather listen to original and creative work than the same 20 songs over and over.
post edited by MakeShift - 2012/01/27 19:12:27
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Philip
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/27 23:36:48
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guitartrek
Philip
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You need the PSP Xenon or the Slate limiter, depending on your genre. Pro MEs use these. Katz and Evans, specifically, use the Xenon, iirc. Others use the Slate, at this time.
Philip - Is the Slate limiter used more for the Rock Genre? Which limiter is for which genre?
Note: I am not a Pro-ME, but have studied reviews everywhere and am 'aware', iirc: The Slate Limiter ($250) is meant for dancy hyper-compressed metal or hip-hop genres ... where kick and/or beatz transients dominate the Master ... and the music is meant to be strong and loud. But rock artists (like you) use the Slate a lot. I seriously doubt Bob Katz or Danny Danzi uses the Slate ... due to its destruction of timbres. Your last music is neo-classic rock with electric guitar wizardry; I think Jeff Evans and possibly Bob Katz would prefer the a C2 comp + PSP Xenon ($250) (based on the loudness wars thread here). The PSP Xenon also does transient enhancements but works well with guitars, vocals, and all instruments (unlike the Slate). PSP is known for its vintage warmer. So the PSP Xenon will sound more tape-lush, too. Sonnox, Ozone, UAD Precision Limiter, Waves L2/L3, Voxengo Elephant, Fab-pro, etc., iirc, are probably all yester-year's limiters compared to the Xenon and Slate. They just don't have today's transient shaping technology nor transparent compression ... built in. Only the Xenon and Slate can give loudness + sonic integrity that is equivalent to and louder than a pro-ME's master. These 2 win the loudness-race by 2 decibels +/-. Perhaps we could think: The pro-ME's Slate Limiter is meant for the street fighter and the Xenon for the pure timbres of heart ... hahahaha! The Slate is the loudest and most transparent dog in the pro-ME world ... but loses piano and other instruments. @Danny: Your master was perfect for radio, studio, church, theater, and living room ... perhaps even the skating rink where they hypercompress. It just doesn't rule my car nor headphones during traffic. There's no reason to make another master ... we'll work on something else this week, Lord-willing.
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guitartrek
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Re:"Radio Ready" - Is brickwall limiter the key?
2012/01/28 07:45:28
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Thanks Phillip. Sounds like the PSP would be good for me. Never even heard of PSP until Danny turned me on to it's stereo enhancer which I really like. I'm currently using Ozone 4's Intelligent limiter. Now I have to ask you what is C2 comp?
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