OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Rain)

Thu, 05 Jul 2007 01:43:22 GMT

ORIGINAL: John T

Whoa whoa whoa. I've not said anything is closed for discussion. Unfortunately, there's nothing to answer in this post, because it's all a gripe about whether you're allowed to discuss the subject or not. You are. Please do.

Because I wrote it as a reply to your own closed arguments, opinions and comments that leave no room for discussion. (i.e. "Probably not, but I don't think that matters much").

If you go back to my very first post, you'll see that I never mentionned that the issue was new - al contrario! yet you felt the need to chime in and to "comment" my reply. What should I answer to a comment? "Okay, it's your opinion" ?

Yes, "dressing like sluts" is extremely shaky ground. You've got a lot of work to do to legitimise that, frankly.

Work? Because I used the word "slut"? I am in no way accusing them of being anything like that - I felt it was obvious and that my point had to do w/ their clothing. To me it's just a word - and maybe the language barrier and our respective cultures make it so that it seems rather heavy to you, heavier than I perceive it - if so, I sincerly apologize to anyone who might have felt the way you do. Blame it on me owing my bad english to South Park. ;)

So, let's just put it this way; the 14 years old school girls I see on the bus to work every morning are dressed like, say, a girl in her 20's desesparately seeking attention would dress to go out at night. From there on it's another debate. My point was just to come up w/ something that could be regarded as an impact of the Spice Girls and all the Britneys and Christinas...

And speaking of bananas... No matter how extreme my exemple might have seemed: next time some parents sue Ozzy cos his music supposedly drove their kid to commit suicide, or that the first thing to be pointed out when some kid kills a dozen of innocent students is that he was dressed in black and listening to Marilyn Manson

What on earth has that got to do with the Spice Girls though?

You called for bananas... So I came up w/ an exemple - an extreme one, as I mentionned, cos we were talking about role models and I felt that if we were going to go as far as discussing their positive impact, we might as well push the limits in the other direction too.

Yet you felt the need to comment my post again there again so I came up w/ something to actually back up my assertion. So, yes, actually, it's got very little to do w/ the Spice Girls, other than the fact that when people decide to believe in the impact of pop stars, they can go as ridiculously far as I mentionned. And this sort of action leads into much more harmful behaviors than my little opinion on the "negative impact" of the Spice Girls.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (John T)

Wed, 04 Jul 2007 05:57:50 GMT

Whoa whoa whoa. I've not said anything is closed for discussion. Unfortunately, there's nothing to answer in this post, because it's all a gripe about whether you're allowed to discuss the subject or not. You are. Please do.

Yes, "dressing like sluts" is extremely shaky ground. You've got a lot of work to do to legitimise that, frankly.

And speaking of bananas... No matter how extreme my exemple might have seemed: next time some parents sue Ozzy cos his music supposedly drove their kid to commit suicide, or that the first thing to be pointed out when some kid kills a dozen of innocent students is that he was dressed in black and listening to Marilyn Manson

What on earth has that got to do with the Spice Girls though?

ORIGINAL: Rain

I came up w/ an extreme exemple to match the silliness of the fact that the words talent and role model were applied to the Spice Girls - every one is free to enjoy their music, but talent and role models? Give me a break - of all, I would think that you guys can tell how much the whole thing is made up. And if you want to talk about them as role models, well, I don't really believe they have any impact beside selling stuff - at first sight - but we'll push the discussion in that direction.

I know that the spice girls are throwaway fun pop music. And I'm not usually inclined to go out bashing things just for the sake of it - I have much better things to do.

But since we're actually talking about it, I do have an opinion on the matter - it may seem a bit too serious to some for the subject at hand. Sorry for them. I do believe there is an ethical question that can be raised. If it's of no interest to you, you can close your eyes on it. I'm not saying it is the most crucial thing that needs to be discussed first and foremost. But that dimension IS there and this, unless I'm mistaken, is a discussion forum.

Shaky ground? So we'll act and pretend like there's nothing to talk about on the ground that it's either too serious for the subject at hand or that it yields uncomfortable questions...

It's as if some guy made a big claim that McDonald food was good food and that the people chiming in with different opinions were told to shut up because McDonald has got nothing to do w/ nutritive facts - it's just food that people enjoy and they don't want to go over such discussions.

And speaking of bananas... No matter how extreme my exemple might have seemed: next time some parents sue Ozzy cos his music supposedly drove their kid to commit suicide, or that the first thing to be pointed out when some kid kills a dozen of innocent students is that he was dressed in black and listening to Marilyn Manson, or that the US government invest $300 000 to help combat the goth culture in Missouri... We'll talk about bananas. Ignorance does have an impact. But I guess as long as we can close our eyes on it, we're okay...

ORIGINAL: John T

Hmm. I think Rain is being a staggering misery guts here, but I think Jinga is overstating the case for the Spice Girls to a staggering degree.

However, Rain, general misery guts-ness aside, this stuff about role models and kids with guns is downright bananas. Spice Girls = throwaway fun pop music for people who like that kind of thing. You not liking it is completely fine, but trying to shoe-horn your personal tastes into some epic sociological and ethical narrative, when we're talking about such flimsy stuff, is pretty much doomed.

Also, I think we're on very shaky ground with this "dressing like sluts" stuff, chaps. Probably want to tread carefully on that one.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (gnie)

Wed, 04 Jul 2007 03:26:55 GMT

For no particular reason, I'll remind us of a thread about a year back where we found our friends logging in at number 21 on the list of '50 albums that changed the face of music'. So let's at least give them their due. ^~^

21 The Spice Girls
Spice (1996)
The music business has been cynically creating and marketing acts since the days of the wax cylinder, but on nothing like the scale of the Spice phenomenon, which was applied to crisps, soft drinks, you name it. Musically, the Spice's Motown-lite was unoriginal, but 'Girl Power', despite being a male invention, touched a nerve and defined a generation of tweenies who took it to heart.
Without this ... five-year-olds would not have become a prime target for pop marketeers. Most of all, there'd be no Posh'n'Becks.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (John)

Wed, 04 Jul 2007 00:23:24 GMT

F***. Now I feel like a total jerk. I just figured somebody would see through my posts and call my bluff. Well, Rain I apologize. I am a complete phony. I don't care about the spice girls at all. I've never seen them in concert, and I have pretty much the same opinion of them as you do. I posted that first post assuming people would get the joke, but then it kept going and going. I even tried to "dumb down" my writing to sound like a lovesick teenage girl. Well, at least it was a unique mental challenge trying to defend and promote them against all the opinions that I actually hold. I even through in the jealousy thing to see if I could provoke an even more impassioned response. I guess my unintentional social experiment has come to an end. Sorry for deceiving you and everyone on the forum. I don't usually lie, but this time I did, and just to see where it went. There was really no good reason for me to act like I did. I really hope I don't lose all credibility on the forum (not that I had much to begin with). Anyway, to everyone out there, I'm sorry.

There is hope for you after all." />

In a way it is funny and kind of well done. A good leg pull is some times a welcomed diversion.

Best
John

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Rain)

Wed, 04 Jul 2007 00:01:45 GMT

You feel like a jerk?! Dude, now, imagine how I feel ;) Let's pretend and blame it on the language barrier " />

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (jinga8)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 23:56:56 GMT

F***. Now I feel like a total jerk. I just figured somebody would see through my posts and call my bluff. Well, Rain I apologize. I am a complete phony. I don't care about the spice girls at all. I've never seen them in concert, and I have pretty much the same opinion of them as you do. I posted that first post assuming people would get the joke, but then it kept going and going. I even tried to "dumb down" my writing to sound like a lovesick teenage girl. Well, at least it was a unique mental challenge trying to defend and promote them against all the opinions that I actually hold. I even through in the jealousy thing to see if I could provoke an even more impassioned response. I guess my unintentional social experiment has come to an end. Sorry for deceiving you and everyone on the forum. I don't usually lie, but this time I did, and just to see where it went. There was really no good reason for me to act like I did. I really hope I don't lose all credibility on the forum (not that I had much to begin with). Anyway, to everyone out there, I'm sorry.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (DW_Mike)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:33:31 GMT

ORIGINAL: jinga8

That's your opinion. I think they're awesome. The energy that pulses through the crowd during a show speaks to how cool their songs and dancing are. So what if they're older? They've still got the moves and the attitude that made them so great back then. Their albums may be overproduced pop, but its fun music. And what's wrong with their lyrics? They sing about love and positive thinking, and are thus role models for anyone who listens to them. You should try going to a show. You'll see how great they are -actually, you'll feel it- and everyone around you will be in that same zone of happiness with you. Its truly magical when everyone is swaying and singing along. You feel like your'e part of something greater than yourself. And that's the main reason I think they are so good, they can bring people together with their music and their positive messages.

Thats funny, I feel the same way about Tool. Well except for the dancing and overproduced part " />.

Mike

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Rain)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:44:27 GMT

I'm not attacking them Jinga (at lest, I was done quickly w/ that) - and at least, I should be glad, you're not feeling like I'm attacking you, so we're not on such bad grounds. " />

I trust that you have enough wisdom to take what you like from their music and leave the rest behind, and that you would most likely act as a good parent. But, that's one of my quirks, I tend to want to discuss things on a more global/abstract scale. And yes I do have an issue when I feel that people assume that what's widely accepted/normal is harmless and I like to discuss those things - of course it always seems like I'm taking the debate on such an epic philosophical level... But, I assure you, I just like to disuss those points - it's not like I'm undyingly bitter about this, or that I'm jealous - mind you, I never would want a 10th of that level of success - I'm perfectly happy having just enough money to keep on writing - it's all I need and want, and if anything success gets in the way of that.

Yet when you mention what they bring to society and how cool they are as role models, I feel like discussing those points, cos the impact they have on you is different than the impact (if any) they have on society.

ORIGINAL: jinga8

You can attack them all you want. Twelve year-olds dressing like sluts? Each case is its own case. Good parents will show their kids how to like something without having to emulate it. Normal parents will see their kids dressed like sluts and tell them to change. Bad parents won't care whether they see them dressed that way or not. But that's no the point. The point is that everything has good stuff and bad stuff about it. If I want to concentrate on the good stuff, why can't I? Anyway, I don't think you will give up attacking them no matter what. They make me wanna be happy and sing and stuff. That's good enough for me. I think you have a bad attitude towards them that is probably out of jealousy that they are so popular. But I am only guessing cuz its not fair for me to judge how you think. But I love them and the good stuff they bring to society.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Rain)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 21:26:46 GMT

I came up w/ an extreme exemple to match the silliness of the fact that the words talent and role model were applied to the Spice Girls - every one is free to enjoy their music, but talent and role models? Give me a break - of all, I would think that you guys can tell how much the whole thing is made up. And if you want to talk about them as role models, well, I don't really believe they have any impact beside selling stuff - at first sight - but we'll push the discussion in that direction.

I know that the spice girls are throwaway fun pop music. And I'm not usually inclined to go out bashing things just for the sake of it - I have much better things to do.

But since we're actually talking about it, I do have an opinion on the matter - it may seem a bit too serious to some for the subject at hand. Sorry for them. I do believe there is an ethical question that can be raised. If it's of no interest to you, you can close your eyes on it. I'm not saying it is the most crucial thing that needs to be discussed first and foremost. But that dimension IS there and this, unless I'm mistaken, is a discussion forum.

Shaky ground? So we'll act and pretend like there's nothing to talk about on the ground that it's either too serious for the subject at hand or that it yields uncomfortable questions...

It's as if some guy made a big claim that McDonald food was good food and that the people chiming in with different opinions were told to shut up because McDonald has got nothing to do w/ nutritive facts - it's just food that people enjoy and they don't want to go over such discussions.

And speaking of bananas... No matter how extreme my exemple might have seemed: next time some parents sue Ozzy cos his music supposedly drove their kid to commit suicide, or that the first thing to be pointed out when some kid kills a dozen of innocent students is that he was dressed in black and listening to Marilyn Manson, or that the US government invest $300 000 to help combat the goth culture in Missouri... We'll talk about bananas. Ignorance does have an impact. But I guess as long as we can close our eyes on it, we're okay...

ORIGINAL: John T

Hmm. I think Rain is being a staggering misery guts here, but I think Jinga is overstating the case for the Spice Girls to a staggering degree.

However, Rain, general misery guts-ness aside, this stuff about role models and kids with guns is downright bananas. Spice Girls = throwaway fun pop music for people who like that kind of thing. You not liking it is completely fine, but trying to shoe-horn your personal tastes into some epic sociological and ethical narrative, when we're talking about such flimsy stuff, is pretty much doomed.

Also, I think we're on very shaky ground with this "dressing like sluts" stuff, chaps. Probably want to tread carefully on that one.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (pjfarr)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:43:35 GMT

Success speaks for itself.

And using performance correction tricks onstage is no different than doing it in the studio, in my opinion. After using V-Vocal on a tune, or tracks comped from several takes, you're giving people the impression you actually performed that flawlessly. How is it any different than doing that onstage?

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (bermuda)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:23:27 GMT

Spice Girls had some very well written pop tunes.

they are a marketing model that should be appreciated.

The fact that folk are willing to love hate, knock and otherwise, shows the lasting impact of their achievements.

Some folks liked the music and not the girls....There was a tear between liking something, but needing to hate it for loosely related reasons. Clever stuff.

I liked their second single, and there were a few good songs there. I met Gerry Haliwell at a festive party in London, she was very nice and guess what ...she could sing then!

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Roflcopter)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:03:09 GMT

but trying to shoe-horn your personal tastes into some epic sociological and ethical narrative

You have no consideration *whatsoever* with the suffering 'artiste', now do you? " />

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (mcgooze)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:54:37 GMT

As one who has spent a decent amount of time "polishing turds", you can't just insert Auto tune on a channel & have it fix vocals perfectly. If someone's way way off it will fix bad notes to wrong notes or ping pong back & forth between notes & sound even worse. So if they're using it live instead of lip syncing, then they're confident that they're getting close. I'd imagine they probably dance a bunch during their shows (they are, after all, scantilly clad entertainers), so nailing pitch is probably tough when they're focussing on more than just intonation.

When they were hot 10 or so years ago, my daughter would make me put their CD on as I drove her to elementary school. Though I wasn't moved to tears by voices that melted my soul, I thought, "Ok, they can at least sing.... they're competent". If you've really tried to take someone who can't sing, & make it sound like they can, then you'd probably agree.

I see them using pitch correction as a favor to all the parents who have to take their kids to the show. Moms & dads won't be screaming, dancing & singing along, so they'll be forced to listen. The kids wouldn't likely notice either way. " />

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (zeypxun)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:19:15 GMT

ORIGINAL: CoteRotie

ROFL. Did anyone see the Ali G interview?

It's HERE on YouTube.

John

That was funny! And Posh is freakin hot

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (John T)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 04:35:10 GMT

Hmm. I think Rain is being a staggering misery guts here, but I think Jinga is overstating the case for the Spice Girls to a staggering degree.

However, Rain, general misery guts-ness aside, this stuff about role models and kids with guns is downright bananas. Spice Girls = throwaway fun pop music for people who like that kind of thing. You not liking it is completely fine, but trying to shoe-horn your personal tastes into some epic sociological and ethical narrative, when we're talking about such flimsy stuff, is pretty much doomed.

Also, I think we're on very shaky ground with this "dressing like sluts" stuff, chaps. Probably want to tread carefully on that one.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (calaverasgrandes)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 04:29:09 GMT

ORIGINAL: maxthecat

I think it's ashame that Old Spice isn't with them anymore. How can they call it a true reunion without Old Spice?

I dont know, Ginger i slooking pretty haggard.
Though posh is looking better.
Anybody try and make it thru the whole spice movie? I couldnt no matter how hard I tried!

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (musec07)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:11:19 GMT

Well MyC...

I too think this deplorable...
YET somehow the sight of mammalian protruberances distracts my focus and lessens my distressin'...
and still I come right back to point zero... what is going on in the world today?

Finally.... perhaps Issac Asimov will look back at us on his way to Trantor and delight as humanity stumbles its' way into the future....

I wonder if... after all the technology and (Hopefully) marvelous advances... the sight of aforementioned "protruberances will still fascinate simple folk like me....

YEP... what ever happened to "talent"....

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (jinga8)

Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:01:54 GMT

You can attack them all you want. Twelve year-olds dressing like sluts? Each case is its own case. Good parents will show their kids how to like something without having to emulate it. Normal parents will see their kids dressed like sluts and tell them to change. Bad parents won't care whether they see them dressed that way or not. But that's no the point. The point is that everything has good stuff and bad stuff about it. If I want to concentrate on the good stuff, why can't I? Anyway, I don't think you will give up attacking them no matter what. They make me wanna be happy and sing and stuff. That's good enough for me. I think you have a bad attitude towards them that is probably out of jealousy that they are so popular. But I am only guessing cuz its not fair for me to judge how you think. But I love them and the good stuff they bring to society.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (droddey)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:12:53 GMT

I feel like you are holding back. Let go of your feelings and really express how you feel...

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Rain)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:00:50 GMT

You know people who are into raves will describe the exact same kind of vibe. And I mentionned shallowness earlier for this exact reason - you become part of something greater than you - but in order for that to happen, you have to level yourself down w/ the lowest common denominator in the crowd.

I'm not arguing w/ you wether it feels good or not - actually I know it does. But the same could be said of many great mass gathering - religious ones, musical ones, riots... I'm much better of seeing Nine Inch Nails or some underground act... But in essence, on that part we agree...

Their message? This I don't buy. Peace, love and positive thinking? Half of the popular music catalog of the last century is about just that - and the other half is about complaining one way or another.

So as far as role models are concerned, except for making every 12 years old thinking that it's cool to dress like a slut from an 80s b-movie, I don't see much in terms of accomplishment and real impact on the world.

These are just my words - one single guy on a music forum exchanging ideas with pals. They make no difference in the end, cos I'm a minority, I have no power over them, neither do I want any power other than the right to substract from the whole thing.

(EDIT)
Come to think of it... How about their negative impact? How about the way they help single out the 12 years old who's parents won't let dress like a slut? Or whose parents don't have the cash to buy the trendiest clothes? Where's the love and the positive thinking gone to?

And if that singled out kid turns to something like, say, Marylin Manson - a typical hero for teenage outcasts - he better be damn careful - cos these people so easily point their finger, especially when a kid walks in school w/ a gun. Every outcast becomes a potential suspect (particulary if you happen to like wearing black, trust me on that one).

I'm not blaming them for that - it's what we collectively want.

ORIGINAL: jinga8

That's your opinion. I think they're awesome. The energy that pulses through the crowd during a show speaks to how cool their songs and dancing are. So what if they're older? They've still got the moves and the attitude that made them so great back then. Their albums may be overproduced pop, but its fun music. And what's wrong with their lyrics? They sing about love and positive thinking, and are thus role models for anyone who listens to them. You should try going to a show. You'll see how great they are -actually, you'll feel it- and everyone around you will be in that same zone of happiness with you. Its truly magical when everyone is swaying and singing along. You feel like your'e part of something greater than yourself. And that's the main reason I think they are so good, they can bring people together with their music and their positive messages.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (CoteRotie)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:40:24 GMT

ORIGINAL: jinga8

they're not a boy band

Then why did one of them marry that English football chick?

ROFL. Did anyone see the Ali G interview?

It's HERE on YouTube.

John

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (jinga8)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:32:54 GMT

That's your opinion. I think they're awesome. The energy that pulses through the crowd during a show speaks to how cool their songs and dancing are. So what if they're older? They've still got the moves and the attitude that made them so great back then. Their albums may be overproduced pop, but its fun music. And what's wrong with their lyrics? They sing about love and positive thinking, and are thus role models for anyone who listens to them. You should try going to a show. You'll see how great they are -actually, you'll feel it- and everyone around you will be in that same zone of happiness with you. Its truly magical when everyone is swaying and singing along. You feel like your'e part of something greater than yourself. And that's the main reason I think they are so good, they can bring people together with their music and their positive messages.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Rain)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 22:06:11 GMT

I guess I just don't get it. Talented how?

It's a well-oiled machine, period. You have every right to enjoy it, just like some people enjoy McDonald - though most would admit that there's nothing good in that sort of food.

IMHO, the cutest spice girl is only average cute - AT BEST. Okay, it's a matter of taste I guess... So unless Kate Beckinsale has joined the Spice Girls, there really is nothing for me to see there.

That's one thing w/ boys and girls band, starting all the way back w/ the Beatles: popularity seems to transfigure them in the eye of the public. Beauty is a matter of acquiring the taste I guess, and overexposure must help...

They can't sing, and a ****ed monkey could come up w/ better lyrics as far as I'm concerned. They dance, no worst but no better than other so-called singers who can't sing. The songs are well-crafted pop but sugar-coated to the point of making me nauseous...

And now they're 10 years older, most likely even less pleasant to look at, maybe even took a bit of weight, still can't sing...

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Roflcopter)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:19:01 GMT

but they never repeat the same exact act

No, not even if they try.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (jinga8)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:08:29 GMT

I've seen them in concert 16 times. And not only has every show been totally amazing, but they never repeat the same exact act. They are super-talented (even if not in the singing department)!!! I can't wait to see them again. With them, it is all about a good show with upbeat songs, who cares if they can't sing. Spice me up baby!!!

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (John)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 20:02:10 GMT

I have little to say except watching them is one way to spice up your life. " /> I guess.

Best
John

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (fetishfrog)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 19:58:03 GMT

Yep. She's hot. And now she's over here to frolic in Hollywood with TomKat. Oh, yay for us.

Meh...every time I see her I think, "someone please get her a sandwich."

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (jinga8)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 19:46:33 GMT

You mean Becky, with those nice curves?

Yep. She's hot. And now she's over here to frolic in Hollywood with TomKat. Oh, yay for us.

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (Roflcopter)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 19:37:59 GMT

Then why did one of them marry that English football chick?

You mean Becky, with those nice curves?

RE: OT - I've never hated as much as I do right now (jimack)

Mon, 02 Jul 2007 19:06:09 GMT

I have no problem with this at all. I've used Melodyne to correct vocals. Most here have used V-vocal to do all sorts of pitch correction and dynamic correction. The only difference is - they're doing it in real time.

Like others here, I figured they probably lip-synched anyway.

If it sparks interest in music in somebody who was otherwise disinterested, then it's a win-win. " />