Guitar Background Noise

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Player)

Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:35:41 GMT

LOL. Is Malibu still around to take advantage of all this advice?

RE: Guitar Background Noise (CJaysMusic)

Sat, 07 Nov 2009 16:10:52 GMT

This thread brings back memories. Did anyone know its almosst 2 years old???? Im sure Malibu figured it out by now..
Cj

RE: Guitar Background Noise (TheSteven)

Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:33:43 GMT

jackn2mpu

There are shielding kits for Strats and Teles - you might want to give them a shot.

From another thread on same subject...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=1275202

RNCMKG

I'll cast a vote for shielding as well. I recently shielded a MiM Fender jazz bass, and a Strat and got great results.

Here is a very useful link on the process that hasn't yet been mentioned:
http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/shielding/shield3.php

Here is a good source for copper shielding tape:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Supplies:_Shielding.html

I didn't follow the shielding process exactly, but incorporated the basic principles. The key is to fully shield the cavity and back of the pickguard and ensure there is full continuity to ground at the jack.

I found that both guitars are now very quiet, and there is no substantial difference in hum whether or not I am touching the strings.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Player)

Sat, 07 Nov 2009 10:53:31 GMT

Does the noise diminish when you touch the poles of the pickups? Have you tried a guitar with humbucking pickups through your system?

RE: Guitar Background Noise (jackn2mpu)

Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:10:49 GMT

Malibu1328

I'm using the M-Audio 410 Firewire.
If I'm not using a distortion kind of effect the guitar noise is fine, there isn't any.
If I turn down the guitar volume to zero there is zero noise - when using an effect.
Obviously as I turn up the volume (on distortion like effects) the noise level increases.
I've tried a few different amp sims with basically the same results.
I have also moved away from the computer - done the lights thing (off) - even turned off the monitor. Same results.
Is there some sort of "better" guitar 1/4" cable that might solve the problem?
The Strat and the Tele are decent guitars with good ( I think) electronics in them.
I have tried 5 different guitars into the M-Audio 410 FW - again basically the same noise levels when using some of the "bigger" distortion sounds found in most of these plug ins.
Yeah I'm totally lost but would appreciate any ideas.
Thank you again...

Garden variety Strats and all Teles do not have anything more than switches, pots and a capacitor or two (for tone control). The Clapton Strat (preamp and tone shaping) and the Roland-Ready Strat do have some electronics; not sure about the David Gilmour Strat . When I had it, the American Standard Tele was the noisiest guitar of my whole collection (EC, SRV and double fat Strat - 2 Seymour Duncan humbuckers). Anything but the most elemental of signal chains with the lowest minimum gain gave me horrendous noise. Solution was to record the signal basically dry and add effects later, but that was only with the Tele. Funnily enough the SRV Strat with it's Texas Special single coils wasn't anywheres as noisy as the Tele.

There are shielding kits for Strats and Teles - you might want to give them a shot. Something that will help a bit with the Tele (especially) if you don't want to do a shielding job on it is to pop the switch plate and jack loose and twist the wires going from the toggle switch. This will help quite down some but not all of the hum. It's a shame Fender just used plain hookup wire in their guitars instead of shielded wire (or even twisted pair wire).

Re:Guitar Background Noise (funtimesman)

Sat, 07 Nov 2009 03:33:35 GMT

Please tell me what the impedance spec is for the me-30? is the input a hi-Z input for the guitar jack? when going out from the me-30 either via the output jack or the headphone jack, does one need a Hi-Z input like I detail below? Please comment on my method of using a boss pedal to make up for the half ass Hi-Z guitar/instrument/line/mic inputs manufacturers of audio interfaces are somewhat misleadingly telling the public will work.

Confrim that 1 mohm is necessary for a Hi-Z guitar input and indicate whether the Boss me-30 meets that spec.

i
You guys are great, thanks for your thorough responses. I have a new question, I don't think it is related to the emails between us copied below.

Basically, how good is the emu 1820, 1820m and the 1616/m for recordign guitar direct? I have the 1820. the 2 preamps on it are apparently mic/line or maybe mic/line/instrument inputs... Please take a thorough look at this thread (which says emu 1820's only have a 500 kohm impedance, which is half the accepted 1 mohm for Hi-Z, thus they really are not very good for guitar inputs....

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1436553

its a damn interesting thread, but towards the end it just gets theoretical and boring....

basically the 500 kohm on the 1820 (is this the actual spec?) is half what it should be. Is the 1820 better in that regard. what the 1616/m an improvement there.

Can one just plug in a guitar to a Boss pedal like the os2 distortion pedal (the thread comments on this:

" A band aid for everyone that works!!!" /> : There are 2 types of pedals :True bypass and Not True bypass. As the names implies, true bypass means that when the FX is OFF, there is a JUST CABLE from input to output. You can recognize those for its switch, like a wha wha or a RAT (Pro co) distortion. Not tru bypass is like any BOSS pedal. When they are off they STILL GO thru circuit. That is why you can not use without a battery!!!! HOLLY SOLUTION: Take ANY pedal (BOSS preferable" />) and put a good power supply. Put it in off (Bypass). Connect your guitar to its input, and its output to any line level input. BINGO!!!!! you have a SUPER DECENT DI with propper 1 mohm input impedance!!! I guaranty you will see the difference. I record my guitar traxs like this thru my EMU1820 (it has a 'fake' hi z input)."

FWIW, for this purtpose a simple transistor preamp like those found of boss pedals is just perfect. The sound is goos thru the whole guitar spectrum.
the idea describen in this topic is enter the guitar signal into the computer as clena s posible.

I tried to plug my guitar in to the line in in the back of the 1820 with a boss os2 distrotion pedal (the yellow one) between my guitar and the dock....i had to engage the pedal, so that the red "check" light came on....and i turned the drive setting to zero so there was no distortion, ie basically a clean tone (so I can keep my options open for later) and that seemed to work really well in terms of getting a hotter signal into my recording software via the 1820....the quote from the thread above seems to think i would not need to stop on the pedal and get the red "check"light (which to me means you have stomped into the distortion and out of the clean area) but I find if I click the pedal out of the distortion zone, the signal is as weak as if there was no pedal (ie, I click onto the distortion part of the pedal, and turn all the distortion setting so low that the tone is essentially clean, but i think the pedal acts as a preamp or di or something when i do that, thus making my emu have an acceptable hi-z input, in the line in in the back (ie not using the preamps in the front of the 1820) no less.

Would it be even better to utilize this boss pedal with the preamps on the front of the emu?

Thanks, for you help and insight.

also, what about this thing:
"ank you all for your interest and kind replies!

A couple of things useful for all 'Direct Recorders' out there:

1) Build a preamp. http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/index.html
They explicitly say that 1mohm is the minimum acceptable. This (or similar things) are actually a BUFFER: an preamp with 0dB of gain, but adapt impedances: In -->1mohm. Out--> 10Kohm (like a line out level).
This leads to 2)

Sincerely,

Me

RE: Guitar Background Noise (CJaysMusic)

Thu, 29 May 2008 00:42:45 GMT

Malibu, any sound card that is semi pro or pro would be a good choice. The edirolfa66 is a great semi pro card. As for your problem, i have recorded guitars with a mic'ed amp, thru guitar modelers (outboard), and with plugins such as AMp2live and guitar rig. I never noticed any backround noise.
Your problem isnt the plugin, its either the A/D converters in your sound card or your not using the proper input for your guitar, such as a Hiz input. It could also be from standing too close to your monitors, but backround noise is usually caused by using inproper equipment
Cj

RE: Guitar Background Noise (skys223)

Thu, 29 May 2008 00:30:15 GMT

Before you take up the bagpipes, you might want to try this!
I have been having the same problems as Malibu1328 has (and found a possible solution)

When I try playing Guitar Combos in realtime with the standalone I get so much background noise that it's actually impossible to get any clean notes (e.g loud huming, buzzing and high pitched notes when playing texas cruising)...I later figured out that if I plug the guitar straight into my Edirol MicRight input and turn the input gain all the way to zero, the guitar is still processed through the Combo. I then loaded up Audition 1.5 and tried recording the guitar on the MicRight input and to my astonishment it actually gets recorded even though the Mic Input is at zero...not only that but the guitar is recorded with a clean sound (not affected by the standalone effect). Then I added the vsti combo to the track and loaded up the same sound from the stand alone and it sounds amazing, very clean , no background noise whatsoever. Even though the guitar is recorded below -30db in the mix, the combo processes the sound at about -50db...not bad. I'm pretty sure it will work with sonar too.

This is a solution for recording Guitar Combos but I suppose it still wont work in realtime...but at least it's better than nothing. Give it a shot, you might be surprised!

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Malibu1328)

Mon, 12 May 2008 19:13:11 GMT

I think I'm gonna take up the bag pipes. :)

RE: Guitar Background Noise (CJaysMusic)

Mon, 12 May 2008 18:49:46 GMT

If your only getting unwanted noise with those plugins, then its not your interface/sound card. Some plugs introduce noise, it depends on the plugin settings. IF the guitar parts without the plugins are not noisy, them you must take a look at your plugin settings and your interface has nothing to do with it at this point since its already tracked
Cj

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Malibu1328)

Mon, 12 May 2008 18:44:11 GMT

Hey CJ -
Your info has been very helpful so far so........
What would you recommend as a decent (maybe even excellent) sound card?
I have this M-Audio 410 FW that has been very reliable since I put a Texas Instrument card in for access to the 1394 FW.
But (obviously) I'm not thrilled with the background noise that I get when I'm using Twang Combo, Studio Devil, etc. anything with a bunch of distortion.
The loud parts (playing guitar) are very good but the quite parts are very annoying - with tons of excess noise.
I do realize that I'm using distortion amps and "noise" is part of that sound but my "noise" is not nice.
Thanks again.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (CJaysMusic)

Mon, 12 May 2008 17:01:25 GMT

Just get a sound card with hiz inputs. no need for a direct box if you have a n audio sound card. If your going to soend $$$$, get a sound card. i didnt see anything tha listed or said your sound card. a di box is a band aid, if you dont have a proper sound card to record and playback
Cj

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Malibu1328)

Mon, 12 May 2008 16:58:51 GMT

Well I appreciate everyone's thoughts here.
I remember from my days in studios it was always (almost) a grounding issue.
Or so it seemed.
I guess now it's just a process of elimination - whatever works.
I think I like the idea of a D.I. box.
So........next question.
What do you recommend?

RE: Guitar Background Noise (frankandfree)

Mon, 12 May 2008 08:41:13 GMT

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

I am no electrician, but intuively iÂ´d go for a short signal chain in front of the A/D as each device and cable adds its own little noise to the cocktail.

That's a pretty undeniable truth, but a tiny bit useless when taken literally - not plugging it in at all being the quietest.

...lol...thatÂ´s for sure, but you will not be getting the best signal to noise ratio with that tactics, are you?" /> Besides, that wouldnÂ´t exactly make a chain.

One tends to want to add stuff, and not *all* of that can be done 'in the box', so unavoidably adds to the line. Once committed, it's a matter of keeping noise out.

Naturally, if you can get the same effect in the box after recording with less noise, that's a no-brainer.

This might be realized per several internal gain stages behind the curtain of the device

Never heard of such a device, beside the fact that unreachable, invisible, and fully automatic gain stages aren't really 'stages'.

I think weÂ´re on the same road. DidnÂ´t know, that fixed amplifying circuits were not called gain stages. Not that i care too much, but gladly add the information to the little i know about electricity.

I freely admit, under the surface itÂ´s more like voodoo to me. I did not want to put the stress on there being only one gain stage, but on there being the minimum of devices in the chain. I have an eye on MindPrints Trio, thought this would be an example, but it indeed has several gain stages.

like your sig.
Frank

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Roflcopter)

Mon, 12 May 2008 06:19:45 GMT

I am no electrician, but intuively iÂ´d go for a short signal chain in front of the A/D as each device and cable adds its own little noise to the cocktail.

That's a pretty undeniable truth, but a tiny bit useless when taken literally - not plugging it in at all being the quietest.

One tends to want to add stuff, and not *all* of that can be done 'in the box', so unavoidably adds to the line. Once committed, it's a matter of keeping noise out.

Naturally, if you can get the same effect in the box after recording with less noise, that's a no-brainer.

This might be realized per several internal gain stages behind the curtain of the device

Never heard of such a device, beside the fact that unreachable, invisible, and fully automatic gain stages aren't really 'stages'.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (frankandfree)

Mon, 12 May 2008 06:05:12 GMT

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter
Any point in the chain at which the signal level can be changed is called a gain stage. The more the better IMO, so having only one point where it can be changed, isn't exactly overindulging.

I am no electrician, but intuively iÂ´d go for a short signal chain in front of the A/D as each device and cable adds its own little noise to the cocktail. And adds another possibility for a ground loop.

So iÂ´d rather have only one good input stage between the guitar and the A/D. It should deliver the right impedance for the pickups to work against and a low noise amplifying to bring the signal up to line levels with a poti. This might be realized per several internal gain stages behind the curtain of the device, though. I am sure there are several interfaces on the market doing the trick. (Mine doesnÂ´t)

The add for the FW410 indicates the possibility to plug a guitar directly. But as it seems to be a line input with gainpot opposed to an instrument or guitar input it might be bought with a higher noise floor. Thus i propose to try a dedicated guitar input stage by adding a clean guitar preamp into the chain.

That said i still guess its a ground loop or some interference into the M-Audio box. Any new results on that front, Malibu?

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Roflcopter)

Mon, 12 May 2008 03:53:28 GMT

Or it is indeed a gain staging thing. Though iÂ´d think it would be possible with just the FW410 reading the advert.

Any point in the chain at which the signal level can be changed is called a gain stage. The more the better IMO, so having only one point where it can be changed, isn't exactly overindulging.

Now exactly *where* you add or take gain, that can alter your sound *hugely*, and also make a big diff in noise levels. Depends on where it's added in the whole chain, too. Order of FX can be important as well, and there is no 'right' or 'wrong' there, even. Depends on what effect you're aiming for usually. You *can* put reverb before distortion, only you hardly ever want to. And if you do, the noise levels are probably different, yet again.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (TheSteven)

Mon, 12 May 2008 03:18:13 GMT

Check out the following link:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1274364&mpage=1&key=guitarnuts�

RE: Guitar Background Noise (jamjar)

Mon, 12 May 2008 01:30:12 GMT

Sounds like a ground loop to me.

The MAudio 410 is a great product and you should be able to get amazing quality guitar recordings using it. However, the 410 is really bad for having ground loops, especially if you are using the AC/DC power supply walwart that plugs into the wall. You can play around with DI boxes and ground loop breakers, but I don't think you'll fully get rid of the loop that way. You need to tell us more about the actual connectivity to help us trace where the loop is. For now, here are some tips:

If you are using the 410 with a laptop, then does the noise disappear if you disconnect the laptop PSU and run on batteries?

If you are using a 4-wire firewire cable (like those used in Sony laptops), then you must also be using the AC PSU - hence, try getting a 6-wire firewire cable and using it bus-powered (ie powered by the PC)

If you don't have a 6-wire interface, go a buy one (they are $20 for a cheapie or $40 for a good one). This assumes a desktop PC - you can also get 6-wire interfaces for laptops via PCMCIA interface (but I don't think they have sufficient current rating to power the 410).

If you aren't using the AC/DC walwart, then start using it. If the problem still doesn't go away (it probably wont because the AC/DC PSU is not earthed) then you could buy a cheap laboratory power supply ($50ish) and a suitable power connector for the 410 + some cable. You need to solder the connector to the cable to the PSU. Also, you will need to set the voltage level to that which the 410 specifies (probably 9, 12, 14 or 18V DC). This might sound tricky, but really it isn't at all and it's worth having a go if it makes you nervous. Any local electronics shop will have all the bits you need and will even probably be able to show you how to do it. The idea here is that the laboratory PSU will be properly earthed and provide a direct (or virtual) connection from DC GND to earth. This assumes that the 410 runs off of DC voltage (one look at the back of it next to the power connector should tell you, look for 'DC' and hope you don't see 'AC' instead).

If all else fails, ask a mate if you can try your 410 and SW on his PC. If the noise disappears then it's definitely a ground loop.

Stuart.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (mrBun)

Sun, 11 May 2008 20:11:33 GMT

I usually record a few extra seconds of â€œhumâ€ for my noisier patches.
I then open the file in Adobe audition, capture the hum as a noise profile and save it with a meaningful name â€œpatch/pedals, amp, and guitarâ€.
Then run noise reduction on the wavs as I record them.
If done properly, the end result will bed down in the mix nicely.
Over time I have built a reasonably comprehensive library of most used patches for my rig, and cleaning the files is a fast and painless process.
Done properly there is little to no degradation of tone.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (frankandfree)

Sun, 11 May 2008 18:21:44 GMT

Assuming your cable and guitars are not broken.

If it was spill through the guitar the noise should at least change intensity when you use two single coils together or wander around. And spill through the mainboard or the M-Audio box wouldnÂ´t change with the volume knob of your guitar.

Perhaps you have a ground loop? Does the M_Audio have an external power supply? Can you alternatively feed it from the firewire? Try the opposite of what it is fed from now.

Or it is indeed a gain staging thing. Though iÂ´d think it would be possible with just the FW410 reading the advert.

Do you have some guitar preamp at hand? Even an old fashioned overdrive pedal in bypass mode would deliver proper impedances on both sides. I use an old Roland GP8, all bypass and levels flat for this and have reasonably good results with the line ins of a RME Multiface. Even with my old Ibanez and her weak single coils. And i surely donÂ´t use the most expensive cables.

Worth a try. Be experimental with the mic/line switch and the gain pot. Just donÂ´t expect wonders, there will be noise, when you do heavy distortion, but not more than youÂ´d expect from a real amp at comparable distortion levels.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Westside Steve)

Sun, 11 May 2008 18:20:42 GMT

ORIGINAL: Malibu1328

When I'm using a guitar plug in effect such as N.I.'s Twang Combo or AC Box Combo I get alot of background noise on the track from hum, etc.
Can anyone tell me a way of getting rid of the hum (static) without losing any of the effects dynamics.
Thanks.....

I'm using Sonar 7 P.E.

Depending on the pickups have you tried turning the guitar away from the console?

WSS

RE: Guitar Background Noise (ew)

Sun, 11 May 2008 15:14:09 GMT

Once again, American Standard Strats and Teles use single coil pickups- they'll pick up 60 cycle hum from anything generating it. And, the shielding on standard Fenders isn't all it should be.

My main recording Strat is a 2003 American Standard- I put EMGs in it and properly shielded the cavities. It's dead quiet.

With distortion, you are going to get noise (just as with a real amp)- you're jacking up the gain to ridiculous levels. Any noise in your chain will be amplified by a large factor. Gain staging is the key here- don't get all your gain in one place.

ew

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Malibu1328)

Sun, 11 May 2008 15:07:57 GMT

I'm using the M-Audio 410 Firewire.
If I'm not using a distortion kind of effect the guitar noise is fine, there isn't any.
If I turn down the guitar volume to zero there is zero noise - when using an effect.
Obviously as I turn up the volume (on distortion like effects) the noise level increases.
I've tried a few different amp sims with basically the same results.
I have also moved away from the computer - done the lights thing (off) - even turned off the monitor. Same results.
Is there some sort of "better" guitar 1/4" cable that might solve the problem?
The Strat and the Tele are decent guitars with good ( I think) electronics in them.
I have tried 5 different guitars into the M-Audio 410 FW - again basically the same noise levels when using some of the "bigger" distortion sounds found in most of these plug ins.
Yeah I'm totally lost but would appreciate any ideas.
Thank you again...

RE: Guitar Background Noise (ew)

Sun, 11 May 2008 14:44:46 GMT

OK...

A guitar first of all's an instrument level device; not line or mic level. Unless your soundcard has a dedicated guitar input, its inputs are more than likely too hot (in the case of mic level) or too cold (in the case of line level.

Low vs Hi-Z- a line level input typically has a 600 Ohm input impedance. Guitar pickups like to see a load of > 1 MOhm.

A good DI box between your guitar and your soundcard will take care of both the level and load mismatch.

Strats and Teles have single coils. If you're using a CRT monitor, you'll pick up hum from your monitor. Turn it off when recording your guitar or face away from it. Or, replace your pickups- the Fender Noiseless pickups aren't bad (and they work). Other options include single coil sized humbuckers, stacked coil humbuckers or active pickups like EMGs (whose "single coil" pickups are actually stacked coil humbuckers with a preamp).

ew

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Frank Haas)

Sun, 11 May 2008 14:40:44 GMT

do you still have noise when you turn the volume on the guitar down to "0" ?
does the noise decrease when you toggle to position 2 & 4 on your guitar ? (in that position both single coils are active and should reduce hum)
when later is the case you might also try to move away from your pc.. turn off the lights (yeah.. really),..
Sonar 7PE comes with an guitar-amp simulation of its own... "RevalverII".. have you tried that one instead.. just to see if that's producing the same noise..
which m-audio card do you exactly use?

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Malibu1328)

Sun, 11 May 2008 14:24:38 GMT

Okay so I've got to learn a bit of stuff here on recording into the computer.
I'm usually using an American Strat or Tele- running through a standard 1/4 inch guitar jack - into an M-Audio card - then into the computer. (Sonar 7 PE) Mostly using headphones to record or sometimes through Roland DS-90 speakers.
I never have any noise when I am using any soft synths or anything else. Just the guitar and it's fairly quiet until I get to the effects (as explained earlier) such as the N.I. guitar combos.
I see someone mentioned impedance and a Hi-Z. Can you explain.
Thanks again for your help.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (frankandfree)

Sun, 11 May 2008 06:37:11 GMT

It also heavily depends on the pickups of your guitar... when i want to use single coils, i have a hard time finding the sweet spot where the noise spill is minimal, as i play in the same room, my pc is in.
Switching off my second monitor (which still is CRC) helps me a lot in those cases.

And yes, using a proper input with fitting impedance (Hi-Z) is most important.

RE: Guitar Background Noise (Frank Haas)

Sun, 11 May 2008 02:07:34 GMT

I have the Twang and GR3.. Never had any problems with noise with the Twang-plugin.. GR3, running the latest patch, is also pretty quiet..
Some people reported that they have noises even if they don't attach a guitar to their audiointerface..
So that's where either the soundcard itself produces this noise (i.e. onboard soundcards) or due to cabling,.. I'd only use balanced cables from the soundcard to the speakers.
(But then these issues should have been heard even before running GR/Combos,..)

RE: Guitar Background Noise (ew)

Sun, 11 May 2008 01:54:23 GMT

ORIGINAL: dance_lets@yahoo.com

You're not telling us what you are using to get your guitar sound into the PC. That is usually
the weakest link in the sound chain and also where your noise is probably getting into
your signal.

Indeed. Add to that improper shielding, sloppy wiring and the like as probable causes. With Combos, you shouldn't have many noise problems at all even with the NR turned off- the only ones that might get noisy are a couple of the Plexi ones using either the BigMuff or the Cat as a front end. I use all my amp sims (GR 3, Amplitube 2 and GC) with the noise gate off and no additional gate for the most part- it's not necessary if you:

1) use proper gain staging, and
2) have a clean signal chain coming into your PC.

And I thought Guitar Rig was relatively expensive?

The software upgrade price from Combos is $169- not a bad deal.

http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54230

ew