Low wattage, tube based power amp?

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Sun, 04 Jan 2009 20:29:32 GMT

Well, after a lot of soul searching, I sold my Les Paul, and used the proceeds (and they were meger in these economic times where everyone is selling and few are buying), and I'm ordering a Microbaby and a pre-wired faceplate from Acme with Fralin Vintage Hots for my Strat. If that doesn't give me "Tone of the Gods" I don't know what will, and at levels that I should be able to really make use of in the apartment here. I've also sold a couple of piece sof software so I'll upgrade the speaker in my Epi cab to something a little nicer, and hopefully sell off the head to help offset it.

So, anyway, another step forward (I hope) in the studio. It kind of hurt to sell the LP, but I've discovered I'm more of a Strat kind of guy really.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:11:34 GMT

Here's a lot of sound clips from Acme Guitar Works using exactly the same setup (amp, guitar, positioning of mic and pickup, pickup height etc...) with different pickups. The amp is a simple class A tube amp (Dr Z.)

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/Strat_Pickup_Sound_Clips_W1.cfm

It's pretty instructive. However, to be fair, they set the pickup heights exactly the same in all cases, which wouldn't have been optimal in all cases. Since 'optimal sound' is subjective, they didn't try to tune each one to what they felt sounded best.

The Fralin Vintage Hots sound REALLY good. The Lollar Blondes also do. The Fender CS 69's are a pretty good option as well.

My Strat is a real American Strat, and it does sound good. Played unplugged it has a really nice, sweet sound to it. So I think it's good. It's a maple kneck type. I'm also going to continue playing around with recording, to make sure I'm not just unfairly judging it. I've got the stuff now I need to get the cab into the next room, so I can keep the cab, pedals, pre-amps and attenuator (arriving tomorrow) in the studio. That'll let me really play around with different tones and hear what the mic is hearing.

I've been getting considerably better results as I've been playing around, though I've not been able to get into the studio for a few days now so I've not been able to get back to it. I'll give it a fair chance, and I can compare it to those examples above. I'll get back to it this weekend and do the isolated cab thing so I can experiment much more quickly.

You can hear in these samples that the Blues set are much more mid-rangey, which is appropriate for blues I guess. Not what I'm looking for. The Valve Jr has plenty of mid-range already. The clarity of the Vintage Hots seem like they would be great for recording.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:06:26 GMT

Mike,
What you say about the "clean" from the 54's is exactly what I feel is "right" about Lindy's PAF pickups. Its all about "clarity". I have a number of PRS's and none of their buckers have that "real" PAF clarity. And Gibson "Burstbuckers", talk about trying to polish a turd. PRS "HFS" are the worst, Harsh, Farts, and generally they just Suck. I've used the Duncan '59's, still not "right". Let the amp do the "driving", the signal from the guitar needs to be clean. None of the PAF wannabes seem to get it. And the ceramic overwound 14k jobs, YIKES! I want the amp to Drive HARD, but I still want that note "definition", not just a bunch of "mush".
I'll say this for the Blues Specials, postition 2 & 4 on my Grosh's have that "chime" on the Clean channel. That's why I bought them, you don't get "that" even with the Lindy's in the Paul. I used to run every new amp down to A# in Renton, and down would come a Grosh Retro Classic, and the Clean would just "sparkle".

I'll have to check out some '54's.

Thanks,
Tom

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:31:30 GMT

I think the Blues Specials are wound just a bit hotter... but that's just off the top of my head. I also recall the real 54's are wound over the Alnico III magnet... is the Vintage Hot and Blues Special on Alnico 5?

Honestly, I have a *few* guitars and when Lindy was just starting out (back when Seymour Duncan was giving him great compliments and recommendations) I ordered a set of real 54s because I wanted to indulge in wider variety of sound and I have a taste for single cols that have a clean sound.

It's cool to think that when I play that guitar into one of my old amps I'm traveling back in time. It sure sounds like it.

Do you know how a player like Robert Cray can sound big and BAD yet clean? This guitar will take you there.

The 54's are relatively quiet so I use that guitar for classic clean tones more than as a foundation for a overdriven sound... because overdriving what comes from those pickups brings up more noise floor than other setups. But it's not bad, just noticeable on comparison.

The clean tone is that classic clean Fender "joy of noise" bell like tone people try to describe.

I do have some Gibsons and other humbucker equipped guitars but yes, it's probably correct to say I'm a single coil man! I'll take a little hum and buzz in trade for that single coil chimey bell like tone.

best regards,
mike

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 23:15:37 GMT

So Mike I take it you are a Strat guy. What's the diff in the real '54 and the Blues Special?

Tom

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:16:25 GMT

I enjoy a set of Lindy's single coil real 54's... they are real nice.

best,
mike

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 21:53:02 GMT

I can't speak to Lindy's single coil pickups (have 2 sets of Blues Specials in my Grosh's, but I'm not a strat guy) but BY FAR his PAF's are the ABSOLUTE BEST! Having owned 2, and played many more original Pauls and 335's Lindy's Buckers are spot on. Put a 9k bucker at the bridge and BS's mid and neck and you won't be disappointed.
Just my .02!

Tom

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (Cromberger)

Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:17:07 GMT

ORIGINAL: droddey

I think what's really hurting me now are pickups. I bought my Strat used, and the price was a little suspiciously low. It is an American Strat, but I'm suspicious that someone swapped face plates and put some el cheapo electronis on it. They don't sound paritcularly good. All of the replacement pickups that everyone seems to think are the shiz are $220 to $250 a set (Frailin, Lohlar, Kinman, Suhr, Duncan Antiquities.) That's as much as I paid for the amp, which I could barely afford.

Hi, Dean,

Obviously, this has gotten off of the original topic, but since it's your thread..... ;>)

The other guitarist in my current part-time band just put Fralin's in his American Standard Strat. Not sure which model, but they're supposed to be very "vintage" sounding. He bought the three pickups already mounted in a pick guard (meaning: very expensive). Do they sound good? Yes. Do they knock my socks off and make me beg for mercy? Not at all. Compared to the Lace Sensors on my Strat Plus, the Fralin's sound more bell-like (vintage, I suppose) but otherwise I don't see the reasoning for the big difference in price. Depending on the style you play, the "vintage" vibe may or may not be what you want, anyway.

My point, of course, is that you don't really have to spend big bucks to get pickups that sound pretty darned good. Maybe all those expensive models that you mention are incrementally "better" (which is very subjective, anyways) than less expensive or famous pickups. But some of the Fender aftermarket P/U's, like the Texas Specials, etc., are not bad sounding and cost a lot less. There will be a lot of folks that will say I'm completely nuts, but I actually like the tone of my Carvin single coils that are on my Carvin Bolt kit. They have a bit more output than the Lace P/U's in my Fender, and they have a very nice, fat tone to my ears. And they're very inexpensive...... They aren't real pretty to look at, though, since they're sans covers. I'll bet you can find a very good sounding set of P/U's for your Strat for a lot less money than what you might think. Of course, if the guitar, itself, isn't sonically sweet, no pickups are going to make it sound magnificent at any price......

Also, you might check the caps, pots, etc., in your Strat and make sure that whoever changed out the P/U's didn't also put in some crappola electronics or the wrong value caps, etc..

Best regards,
Bill

Edited for spelling

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:52:48 GMT

can't go wrong with Bill Lawrence replacement pickups, many varieties..

http://guitarsbyfender.yuku.com/forums/11

http://www.billlawrencereview.com/L-500

http://www.billlawrence.com/

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (Crg)

Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:45:41 GMT

Rockmod Brick-nice looking head! Does it have speaker outs? What is the wattage?

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:47:19 GMT

Yeah,
I straighten out a JCM 800 100 watt lately, delivered it yesterday, and of course we had to lite it up.
Ouch!

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (RLD)

Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:34:18 GMT

ORIGINAL: DeeringAmps

Way Cool!
We'll have to meet at A# Music one day, they have one of my 100 watters there.

Yeah...A# is about 10 minutes from my house.
I don't think I could handle a 100 watts anymore.
I record my VOX on the 5 Watt setting and it can get too loud.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:37:54 GMT

I think what's really hurting me now are pickups. I bought my Strat used, and the price was a little suspiciously low. It is an American Strat, but I'm suspicious that someone swapped face plates and put some el cheapo electronis on it. They don't sound paritcularly good. All of the replacement pickups that everyone seems to think are the shiz are $220 to $250 a set (Frailin, Lohlar, Kinman, Suhr, Duncan Antiquities.) That's as much as I paid for the amp, which I could barely afford.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:20:58 GMT

Way Cool!
We'll have to meet at A# Music one day, they have one of my 100 watters there.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (RLD)

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:08:51 GMT

Hey Tom,
Actually I used this red Kramer on that song.
Never Had It So Good
You can see the Strat on the chair. I put in EMG's and went to volume only, no tone knobs.
This is the chain I used... Kramer>VOX>BeyerM69>Behringer DDX3216>ADAT out to PC.
The VOX is a modeler, but it has a pretty convincing sound, no?
I live in Renton...I'll have to stop your shop one day.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:29:59 GMT

RLD,
Its working. Nice touch, you're killin' me! Got a link to the full tune?
That's the Strat in your avatar? What's the signal path?
John Nelson (Eddy Money) had a 1 pickup (Duncan stacked Bucker), single knob '57 I think. Just a monstor thru a 4 input Marshall!

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (RLD)

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:33:45 GMT

Hey Tom,
Thanks for those samples.
Could you give me your impression of the guitar sound in this clip?
NHISG
Thanks.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:25:08 GMT

Gentlemen,
I realize I'm coming late to the conversation, but here goes.

Dean,
Be VERY CAREFUL with any mods to the Valve Jr. The pcb traces are very thin and fragile.
Here is what you can expect with the VJ dimed.
VJ unmodded into Demeter ISO cab, EV speaker (not my favorite speaker) SM57 into UA 6176, PRS Santana model both pickups.
The stock VJ speaker is pretty bad, IMHO.

I think Mike has the best solution in his "half baked" amp, into one of the old Rolas in the ISO Box.
Mike have you tried a THD Yellow Jacket in the half baked? I'm an EL-84 kind of guy myself!

With regards to the ISO cab. Is it the perfect solution? No absolutely not! The perfect "room" with the amp close
miked and a room mic for natural ambiance is what we all want, MOST of the time. Wish in one hand...

Regarding the use of the Vintage 30 in the ISO box. I'm not at all surprized that batsbrew was unimpressed with the tone. The V30's
seem to require A LOT of exercise to "sweeten" up.

Here is the ISO with an Eminence "The Tonker" that's had about 48 hours of "exercise".
'68 goldtop with Fralin PAF's>DVA Fifty>The Tonker>SM57>UA6176

I hook the speaker (in the ISO box) to the Variac and ran it at about 40 watts (about 18 volts) for the "Tonk" (less for a lower rated speaker).

Bias remains important EVEN in the single ended, and push/pull cathode biased designs. I have a Ceriatone "LiverPull" that draws WAY too much
current. The EL-84's are almost RED hot, NOT GOOD. I need to change out the power section cathode resistor.

Just my .02.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:57:29 GMT

I got the Bitmo Trio mod done tonight. A couple moments of semi-terror, but mostly it went quite smoothly, and I'm hardly a whiz with the soldering iron. It adds a three position gain swith plus tone control with boost (pull it out for boost.) And I've got the replacement tubes both in place now as well.

It really makes it a completely different amp, I have to say. Far more flexible. I've just played a bit with it so far, but clearly it's turned it from an uber-simple amp to a pretty dang flexible one. It also gets rid of the kind of farty tone and excessive mid-range. It's going to be a far better recording amp for sure, with a lot more range. I can lighten it up now for that soft, thin soul/funk sort of sound really well now, which I couldn't before at all.

I've got the Weber Mini-Mass on the way, so that I can crank it up for some more natural tube breakup, which will make a lot of difference I'm sure. Some of the new tones I'm getting, I can tell that if I could get it cranked up to light breakup with harder attack, it's going to be into a nice 'Little Wing' sort of territory with the Strat. With the gain switch on high and the boost out, and the ability to crank the volume, it's probably going to give some serious overdrive as well.

So, coming along pretty well, still for a quite minimal investment. The whole thing is still only at $400 with the Mini-Mass. I'll post some results before too much longer hopefully.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (j boy)

Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:06:07 GMT

Personally, it's just a lot more fun to play a real amp... I don't get much thrill out of the sims, even if the end result were identical.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:56:07 GMT

It's not like you can't do good work with sims. I'm going to have a good comparison because I just got finished tracking the basic backing tracks for a tune, and I'd worked hard on getting a good sound. I'm going back now and re-tracking them with the amp. So I'll have a real world tune, at least the core tracks of one, with the only difference between sim vs. amp. And I know the sim thing well, so the sims won't be getting short shrift, they'll have a fair chance, actually an unfair chance since I've never mic'd an amp before yesterday. I'll post the two versions for comparison.

On the other side of things, setting up to record is a major production compared to using sims. With the sims. I just plug the guitar or bass into one of the pre-amp DIs and put on the headphone, and I'm tracking. And it's hugely flexible in terms of adjusting after the fact. With the amp scheme there's a lot more to do and not nearly so much chance to change it after the fact.

So they both have their pros and cons.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:50:11 GMT

Electrons moving in a vacuum... as opposed to electrons moving through dirt. :-)

The next time you hear Jimi ask "are you experienced" you'll know the answer :-)

have fun!
mike

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Thu, 04 Dec 2008 16:34:01 GMT

Well I got it in today. I've got to go get some new strings and a 9v battery. I gave it a very quick test, just to swap out the pre-amp tube (new power amp tube won't arrive until monday) and make sure that it came up. It's LOUD. I'm definitely going to have to get the Weber attenuator if I want to do the cranked up natural crunch thing. With the LP it's REALLY LOUD because of the higher output pickups.

Definitely though, even with that quick test, and even with such a low cost amp, the difference between a real amp and a sim is obvious. It's hard to even quantify what the difference is, but it's clear. I've been working with sims for a couple years now since I got into this thing of ours, so I know that sound very well. You can definitely tell this is one of those 'all tube, very simple path' type of amps. Unlike going through a DI to a sim, every little thing is amplified. I'll have to get used to that, because every movement of the fingers on the strings and such is much more obvious.

I think it's going to be GREAT for bass. Either by itself, close mic'd for proximity effect, or further back for a brigher sound and mixed with a simulataneous DI'd input. I think it's going to add a lot of realism to the bass, and be a sound that I'm going to really like.

Of course this is all with way overly old strings (which was a good thing when DI'ing to avoid excessive high end), one tube still to replace, and just hearingit in the room, not what the mic is going to hear. So I've still got a lot of experimentation to do.

It does have a fair amount of low end, at least in the room. So I probably will do at least one of the simple mods to add a switch to roll off some lows when not wanted. I don't want to get rid of them altogether, because for a jazzy thing it would be great. And I want to hear awhat I can do with the pedal's tone control as well.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:48:06 GMT

well, you picked a fun one to work on that's for sure, and there's really nothing to stop you from all the experimenting you want to do with it (versus a real vintage unit, like an old champ)

keep us posted!

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:01:53 GMT

If it was that long ago, it was probably a V1. It's been much improved since then. One of the simple mods is a brightness switch that's easy enough that even I (a software guy) would feel comfortable doing. And of course you can use various pedals. I orded a TS9 Tube Screamer, which lots of folks use, either as a distortion pedal, or just as a clean drive/tone control for the amp. And the replacement tubes are supposed to make the breakup smoother as well.

I've heard your stuff of course, and we are probably shooting for a different sort of sound for the most part. I'm interested in something with a fairly vintage sound. Once I hear it and get a feel for it, I may opt to do the brightness switch mode, which is basically just for what you indicated, to remove more low end as the drive goes up. And it may be affected by the difference the speaker you used vs. what I'll have, so I'll see what it sounds like first and then see where I may want to go wrt to mods. Most of them are very easy and cheap to do.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:04:26 GMT

this doesn't have the cabinet we used, we did the testing and recording in another location, but these are the two amps we used....

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:00:47 GMT

droddey-
the model i had, i bought at the same time as the mini-
this was about a year and a half ago, for whatever that is worth to know....

it was a head, stock.

we ran both amps (bypassing the crummy little speaker in both) into a Avatar 2x12, miced with a AT4033, and recorded on Sonar for a comparison session.
we spent quite a bit of time experimenting with them both, and recording each.

i can say that the harder you push the Epi, the more flabby it sounds.

best to use it for low and medium gain sounds...

also, it works better to drive it set at low gain, with a boost of some sort, preferably, a clean boost along the orders of a Barber launch pad.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:03:42 GMT

http://vintagetubeservices.com/page16.html

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:49:07 GMT

There have been three versions of the Valve Jr., so if you owned an earlier version, it wasn't as good an amp as it is now. A lot of the mods folks were doing have been incorporated. Also, did you have the combo, or the head? The combo of course has a wee speaker and would be limited because of that.

But there are still lots of inexpensive mods you can do it, and it's a very simple and pure signal path, which appeals to me more than the bells and whistles. I bought the standard set of replacement tubes that are so commonly used withit that folks sell them as a Valve Jr. tube kit (a Tungsol 12ax7 and JJ EL84), and suposedly they make a large difference as well.

I'll look into some of the other mods once I get it and get accustomed to it and see if I want to change anything.

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:49:52 GMT

i would have suggested the Peavy Jsx Mini Colossal over the epi amp...

i've owned both.
the mini was a much better sounding amp, with a lot more bells and whistles, as well as a built in attenuator AND a direct XLR out.

Low wattage, tube based *power* amp?

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (Cromberger)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (Crg)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (RLD)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (RLD)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (RLD)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (j boy)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based *power* amp? (batsbrew)

Low wattage, tube based power amp?

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (Cromberger)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (Crg)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (RLD)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (RLD)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (RLD)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (DeeringAmps)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (j boy)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (mike_mccue)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (droddey)

RE: Low wattage, tube based power amp? (batsbrew)