OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Mamabear)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:57:46 GMT

Um, well, if you can't see it...someone's been messing with your picture. :-)

Now go back to your music! :-)

And I've gotta say once again...4 months to learn Claire De Lune? That's really not too much even if you DO read music well. Reading music's one thing. Making your fingers do what they're supposed to is quite another.

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:55:47 GMT

Beard, what beard? " />

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Mamabear)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:37:07 GMT

Notice what?! Oh, that. You mean you had another avatar before? Well, now that you mention it, I guess I did. lol

I bet you were pretty popular with that beard in 5th grade too! :-)

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:32:25 GMT

Hey, diplomacy will get you much further in life than opinions. " />

BTW: Did you notice I uploaded a less controversial avatar? That's me at around 8-10 years old. Oh, to have hair and skin like that again! " />

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Mamabear)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:07:22 GMT

Always the diplomat, huh? :-)

I did hear of a man who played beautifully. Went to school to learn to read music and they basically told him, 'what's the use?' Some of the best musicians on the songs forum can't read music. Again, not an excuse for you, but I realize that where we are now in life.... since we only have so much time available for extra-curricular pursuits, and procrastinating takes so much precious time and energy...well, we gotta do what we can with what we have! :-)

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Tap)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:39:33 GMT

I must admit that currently all my time is specifically allocated for procrastinating but as soon as I'm finished I will start learning to read music.
--- That's how I ~~did~~ plan on doing it ....

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:52:49 GMT

You have gone over the online forum cliff

You're right about that! I can't believe the moderators haven't moved this thread yet. " />

Well, Pete, I have to give you credit for your persistence with the midi approach.

Of course I know you're right, I'm really making excuses for being lazy. I should learn to read music. " />

Pete, maybe if you tried learning Mozart's piece called, I think, "Variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" you might change your mind

That's a good idea Greg. But that brings me back to trying to run before I can walk. I just came full circle. " />

Just a guess here, but I think the reason it takes you so long to learn a song is that you are a perfectionist.

You're absolutely correct about that. And yes, I like to record myself in real time because I want to hear what it would sound like if I were playing the piano live before an audience. Recording myself is actaully a huge help that lets me know where I need work. Being a perfectionist is a trait passed on to me by my father (good or bad) that drives the rest of my family absolutely crazy.

As far as learning to read music now--sure, you'd probably benefit from that and enjoy it and do well. On the other hand, what you're doing now is working for you.

My dear, dear Janet. Always the diplomat. " />

I must admit that currently all my time is specifically allocated for procrastinating but as soon as I'm finished I will start learning to read music. " />

But yea, I think I'll work on a few songs simultaneously and that way it won't be as boring to me.

Thanks for eveyone's input. This has really transformed into quite an interesting thread! " />

Pete

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Beagle)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:22:52 GMT

" />

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Mamabear)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:50:54 GMT

Oh, and thanks for Reece for letting me know about this thread. :-)

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Mamabear)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:30:02 GMT

Hey Pete! Sorry I'm so late to this party! I actually ~~spend~~ waste most of my time in the coffee house these days, so you can usually get ahold of me there.

Sounds like you've gotten lots of good answers here already. But first of all--taking 2 months to memorize a song is NOT too much. I can't even imagine memorizing one in 2 weeks, unless it's a very short, easy one or just chords or something. But then again, I can only practice 15 minutes a day on a song, so it may take me longer than some. Well, heck, I only ever memorized one song in my life and that was last year--Jon Schmidt's 'All of Me.' 11 pages! I learned to play it in 2 months (or so), but then it took me 2-3 months to memorize it. I never could play it without mistakes like you did Clair De Lune. :-(

Anyway, I think you have your answer, but I would say, no, don't wait to start another one till that one's done. Piano playing should be about enjoyment too. I make my students play certain songs (I use Bastien Piano Basics), but some of them we just don't like, so they can skip those. If they bring a new song they want to learn, I let them work on it. At Christmas they all get to work on Christmas songs (at their level) if they want to (The fact is, if they'd practice like they should, they could get through the 5 levels in a couple years and then go on to play almost anything they want (within reason, of course.) But I don't get too many that practice that much or catch on that quickly, whatever the case may be.)

As far as learning to read music now--sure, you'd probably benefit from that and enjoy it and do well. On the other hand, what you're doing now is working for you. :-) In fact, you've inspired me to learn a few classical pieces just for fun. I might even record them. At my pace it's gonna take awhile.

But yeah, make it fun. :-)

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (gamblerschoice)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:46:38 GMT

Just a guess here, but I think the reason it takes you so long to learn a song is that you are a perfectionist. I've had the pleasure of hearing your music, and as you noted above, the piano parts are played live, most likely in one take (reading between the lines, but I think it is a safe bet).

Since the reply to that supposition is probably hours away, I will proceed with the assumption I am correct. So, since you have that type "A" personality, and the perfectionist traits that come with it, my suggestion would be to learn at least two or three songs at a time. Maybe get one worked out about a quarter through, then pick up on number two. By the time two is a quarter into your memory, one is half done, go to number three.

See, when three is a quarter dedicated to memory, two has reached half way, one is three quarters, done, so, you could actually add number four to the list,and you have a continuous program to keep that gray matter 'tween your ears constantly engaged.

Might seem like I'm joking, but the truth is, I am serious. You know you can handle it (remember, I've heard your work). Besides, if the strain overloads the cpu between those floppy ears, you can just slow the process down a touch.

Learning to read midi is very much like learning to read guitar tab. Some might even say it is more complicated and a touch more difficult than reading regular music. I feel, whatever works for you is all that counts. That, and your determination will get the job done.

Later
Albert

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (57Gregy)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:58:44 GMT

http://www.classicalarchives.com/work/18457.html

Some live recordings of Mozart's "Twinkle" and at least 1 MIDI file.
Enjoy!

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (57Gregy)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:11:01 GMT

I just can't stand the thought of learning to play "Twinkle-twinkle

Pete, maybe if you tried learning Mozart's piece called, I think, "Variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" you might change your mind. " />

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Tap)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:20:59 GMT

Well, Pete, I have to give you credit for your persistence with the midi approach. It really shouldn't be so bad if you are using a good keyboard and software program.
Good Luck.

-TAP-

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Robomusic)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:51:59 GMT

You have gone over the online forum cliff and fallen where no one should go. But there is a 12 step program for this, but I have not found the stairs!

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:50:23 GMT

actually, the dog is my "online" avatar and the guy in the ballcap is my "offline" avatar.

Wow, I didn't know you could do that. I just checked my profile and see now that I can. Well...isn't that special! " />
Well..just about everyone in the forum has participated in this thread except Janet. " />

I don't think she frequents this forum as often as she used to. She spends most of her time in the Songs forum now. " />

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Beagle)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:41:31 GMT

Robomusic

Back to the Dog i see!

actually, the dog is my "online" avatar and the guy in the ballcap is my "offline" avatar.

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:04:39 GMT

I totaly agree that learning to read music will definitely enhance one's skills.

On the same token, by studying a midi file, I am indeed playing the song note for note.

In addition I can actually hear the song being played and its arrangement before I start learning it because it is a midi file. I can listen to several midi files and decide which one I want to learn knowing that I'm going to like the song and arrangement before I start learning how to play it.

Many times the sheet music will be a simplified version of the song, which may not sound too good and you don't know it until you've already learned much of the song.

There are times when I add some notes/chords to the midi file and/or change the arrangement a bit to make it sound better.

Ideally it would be great to obtain a midi file of a chosen song and then print the sheet music for it in Cakewalk's staff view and learn learn how to play the song by reading the sheet music that was printed.

There are many roads to take and as long as you end up with a good final result I don't really think it matters how you reach your destination. Being able to read sheet music may get me there faster but I cringe when I think about how much time and effort it would take me to learn. It's like learning another language. Sometimes I think the time spent learning how to read sheet music can be better spent learning how to play the songs by studying midi.

On a side note: George Gershwin (One of my all-time favorite composers) never had any formal musical training. Yet his composition "Rhapsody In Blue" is the number one most played composition in the world.

Wow, how did this discussion get so deep? " />

Pete

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Robomusic)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:51:48 GMT

Back to the Dog i see!

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Beagle)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:41:43 GMT

OH! I competely agree with that as well! the reason I say that I encourage him to learn to read / sight read is because of his desire to play note for note. I alos believe that learning to play "fake book" style and "by ear" are extremely good talents to have for a musician!

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Tap)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:22:25 GMT

I agree that learning to read music is essential for playing the piano, but I don't always feel that to play a song requires learning to play it note for note from a song sheet. I've found that many of the song sheets are not true to the song. (Not that they are bad arrangements). There is merit to both and I would really strongly encourage learning to read the music, but at the same time it's equally important to develop your ear training skills.

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Beagle)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:36:13 GMT

Robomusic

I loved the method that that dude on Tv teaches, i think he is called the Piano guy. Anyway he teaches to learn the melody and add simple chord changes to it rather than learn complex left hand work, that way you get the sound of the song and simple chord support, and it is easier to learn and to add to in the future.

http://www.scotthouston.com/store/home.php

which, basically, is exactly the same thing as playing by "fake book"

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Beagle)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:34:27 GMT

hey, pete! If I may interject my opinion in here as well...

I too would encourage you to learn to read music and learn to play from sheet music instead of trying to learn by picking out the parts by ear. some people have a great talent for playing by ear, but they don't play things note for note by ear - they "improvise" within the chord. that's a great talent, but if you want to play pieces by the exact notes, then you really should learn to sight read.

I admit that I cannot do it well (sight read) but that's because I haven't practiced it enough. I am currently working on that now, along with voice lessons and theory classes at a local community college as well.

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:26:30 GMT

I would be working on several songs at the same time.

Thanks for the input. I was kind of thinking the same thing. I'm thinking the more songs I have under my belt the better.

I can still continue to practice my old songs while learning new ones.

I stopped writing my own songs several months ago. My plan is to learn to play other songs to sharpen my skills in both piano and guitar thereby allowing me to write better songs for myself. So I've been using all my free time to learn and practice, practice, practice.

I just can't stand the thought of learning to play "Twinkle-twinkle" " /> when I can already play Claire De Lune and some other more complex songs rather well, which is why I don't take lessons.

Thanks again,
Pete

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Guitarhacker)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:28:51 GMT

Running a marathon before you learn to walk..... what a concept....

Actually Pete.... I would slow down a bit and learn simple short things first. Buy a software program for a few bucks that lets you learn the piano the right way. I bought one for my daughters... however, they decided they would rather do other things..... but the program teaches skills by practice and playing games and such..sight reading notes, scales, and learning simple songs. You need to feel a sense of accomplishment, and simple easy songs will do that, plus give you the muscle memory & motor skills needed for the complicated songs. Simple things like which finger should start a scale run so you end up automatically in the right place to play the next chord without having to jump your fingers all over the place....

But to your original question... I would be working on several songs at the same time. When I took piano lessons, my teacher ALWAYS had me learning several scales, several songs from the workbook, a song from a special workbook, and generally a pop song from some sheet music that I chose..... she packed alot into a 1/2 hr lesson..... it was my job to work on it through the week.... so yeah... tackle as many songs as you wish... but build a foundation first.

My youngest daughter wanted to learn the theme to that vampire flick.... and she sat down at the piano, with her laptop, and worked the online youtube lesson on how to play it..... she didn't want my help, and it became a source of frustration to her, because she did not have the basics to build on.... for the level of expertise needed to play the song the way she wanted.

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:13:25 GMT

start on the first 4 measures , then the next four ... then put both together. do the same for the next 8 and then merge them together now you have 16.

Actually that's exactly the way I learn the song but instead of sheet music I "read" the midi notes and then memorize them.

I loved the method that that dude on Tv teaches, i think he is called the Piano guy.

I've watched his show a few times and I like it too. But I also like learning the complex left hand parts of the song because that's what makes the song really shine over a more simple arrangement.

I think I do OK but wish it didn't take me so long to master a song. I start to get tired of the song.

That's why I'm thinking perhaps I should start learning a new song as soon as I've memorized a my current song even though I haven't mastered the current one yet . I could continue practicing my current song while learning a new one and maybe that way I'll learn more songs faster.

I suppose the best way is to take the traditional route of taking lessons, practicing scales, etc. But I was never one for taking the traditional route. " />

I think what matters most is the end result of playing and not necessarily how you got there.

I also play acoustic and electric guitar but have never taken a lesson for that either. " />

Pete

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Robomusic)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:22:03 GMT

I loved the method that that dude on Tv teaches, i think he is called the Piano guy. Anyway he teaches to learn the melody and add simple chord changes to it rather than learn complex left hand work, that way you get the sound of the song and simple chord support, and it is easier to learn and to add to in the future.

http://www.scotthouston.com/store/home.php

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Tap)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:51:52 GMT

I only had a couple of piano lessons.... I traded guitar lessons for them. It would help to get the basics of piano playing down - being able to play the scales, and knowing your chords, I guess. I think it's perfectly O.K. to attempt songs that appear to be beyond one's ability. I've worked out a number of Billy Joel Pieces by ear. I think it would be harder to try to learn them from a piano score or by doing it they way you are attempting, but it seems to work. I like your version of Clare De lune.

I still think if you work the piece out phrase by phrase and work the phrases together you should be able to master these pieces faster. IE. start on the first 4 measures , then the next four ... then put both together. do the same for the next 8 and then merge them together now you have 16. Music is repetitive so many of the phrases you work out will come back again later in the song.

-TAP-

P.S. I'm sure Janet will be by to comment. She started by taking lessons but later learned how to play by ear. I think her style and talent can be attributed to both her lessons and her ear training.

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Peter Rabbit)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:30:47 GMT

Actually I've never had a piano lesson or any kind of music lesson in my life and I can't read music.

I learn my songs by studying and memorizing a midi file until I can eventually play the song myself. This process takes me a couple of months.

I know I'm probably selecting songs that are far beyond my skill level but the odd thing is that it takes the same amount of time for me to learn a simple song as it does for me to learn a complex one. Therefore I select songs and arrangements that sound appealing to me regardless of the skill level.

Here's a link to my previous song that I learned. This was after 6 months of learning/practicing. I recorded this in real time while performing it on my Yamaha Motif ES8.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=326226&songID=7953326

Pete

Re:OT: Question for Janet/Mamabear (Wood67)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:59:01 GMT

That's what killed the fun of learning piano for me when I was younger. Everything was done by the Grades system. So for Grade 3 or whatever, you got a book with 6 or so pieces, from which you (your tutor) chose 3. Plus some new scales, short excercise pieces and some theory. And that was it - you had to play nothing but that constantly until you were ready for the exam. Then rinse and repeat. I think I got to Grade 5 before I couldn't take it any more. By that stage I was playing stuff by ear anyway, and decided that drumming was the future!