I think about her when I'm Mastering !!

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:35:10 GMT

For anyone interested, below is the Waves C4 multi-band compressor with one band active:

As you see the range is set to -1 dB. Nothing drastic. Now here is the phase plot of what this does to the phase of a signal sent through it:

As you see it affects the phase of the entire mix. It is all over the place. This might not always be audible if your monitors already considerably skew the phase.

This is just an example. Many multi-band compressors have similar phase plots. It is unavoidable unless using a linear phase design. This in turn has other compromises.

So my personal advice when "mastering" your own mixes would be to try and fix things in the mix. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that. If for whatever reason that is not possible, only use a multi-band compressor if other solutions don't work. It shouldn't be the first thing your grab for. More often than not an EQ is what you need.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (John)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:30:16 GMT

Well said Jeff.

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (Jeff Evans)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:16:52 GMT

So far the order of signal chain has been Compressor, EQ and Limiting. What about EQ the mix first. That way you are hitting the second stage with a mix that is better and has a more even distribution of energy across the spectrum.

I have been using a slight amount of mix buss compression during the mixdown before mastering. Very low ratio eg 1.3:1 and high threshold so only about 3 db of gain reduction is ocurring. This mix buss compressor does not have to be multiband either. A full range compressor works well here too.

Then for me the signal chain is EQ, Multiband and Limiting. Dont try and get a lot of gain from any of these processes, justa few db from each stage. The Sonar 64 Bit EQ and Multiband are great tools. Mastering engineers use Multiband compressors all the time. They are harder to use initially but better in the end as they are smarter than a normal compressor. They can really level out a more amateur mix and make it sound better and more polished. I use the Waves limiter in the end because it seems to do a fine job without pulling the mix apart.

But a great mix is important to start with first. And remember to leave time between mixing and mastering and also we need to calibrate what we are doing when mastering eg calibrated monitor gain. How loud is loud? Katz K System calibration of monitor gain and reference levels.

Remember to always switch over to professionally mastered CD's in the same style as you are mastering yourself. (These need to lowered in volume so all things are of equal loudness) That will keep you honest with your adjustments. Always compare completely un mastered material at higher volume to mastered material at equal volume to really hear what you are doing to the signal. Making it worse in most cases!

The end result is to find a balance between making a CD that is loud and also retains lots of power, dynamics and transients in the end. It can be done (K System reference of -12db FS
and turn monitor gain down by -6db)

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:51:26 GMT

CJ, I am still curious. Which multi-band compressor are you using?

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (John)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:47:03 GMT

This has gone far enough. Please stop attacking one another. The good points in this thread have been totally obscured by this nonsense.

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:41:42 GMT

CJaysMusic

There you go again, attacking the person and not the topic...LOL

I am not attacking anyone. I am making a statement of fact about your knowledge on this topic.

In your example above of using a mid band, the multi-band compressor has four filters engaged in the audio path.

And there is a bypass for each band that you can engage and nothing effetcs those bands.......Geeze you would think you would know the settigns on these things. when you bypass a range, the signal goers thru it un effected
Cj

And how do you think the bands get separated smart guy?

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (...wicked)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:25:05 GMT

Oh boy, we've gone into that dreaded territory of "righteous knowledge".

Well hey man, if you accomplish your mastering goals with the tools you use I ain't gonna fight, use what you use. I don't make claims to be a mastering engineer.

I'll also agree that one is better off having someone else (preferably with the advanced skill set) master their work. For my personal projects that's how I do it. But in the project studio world sometimes you have to do your own mastering. Assuming that's where we started with the original post.

I'm also not gonna comment about the "your mastering guy must not know his stuff" comment because he uses a multiband (paraphrasing). Taking blind stabs in the dark about a third person's acumen is bad for both parties.

So I'll go back to saying: for my own quick and dirty mastering needs I use a multiband compressor, a linear phase EQ, and a limiter. I'm sure more skilled folk can make more with less, but it's what I use.

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:24:59 GMT

In your example above of using a mid band, the multi-band compressor has four filters engaged in the audio path.

And there is a bypass for each band that you can engage and nothing effetcs those bands.......Geeze you would think you would know the settigns on these things. when you bypass a range, the signal goers thru it un effected
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:20:37 GMT

I know what I am talking about. You obviously don't.

There you go again, attacking the person and not the topic...LOL
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:16:38 GMT

CJaysMusic

You can effect only one band when using a multiband.

In your example above of using a mid band, the multi-band compressor has four filters engaged in the audio path.

I never heard any phase shifts when using 1 or 2 of the 4 or 5 bands.

That doesn't mean they are not happening.

I guess you forgott to type in "May" cause, cause you said "and cause" and this isnt right.

I did not forget anything. A minimum phase filter design will cause phase shifts. I also mentioned Linear phase designs. Go and reread my post.

Btw, which multi-band compressor are you using? I can test it for you and show any phase shifts if they exist.

Your assuming too much. There's an awfull lot of assuming going on here and one should never assume that a multiband will butcher a song when masgtering it.

I know what I am talking about. You obviously don't.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:15:14 GMT

Ok, you can give 2 guys jack hammers. one guy knows how to use one cause hje was trained to use one and another guy was not.
Now give each guy the same with the jackhammer. 99 out of 100 times the guy trained and experienced to use the jackhammer will do a better job and not Brutalize it.. LOl
Its the same with any tool you use for mastering....LOL
There you go. LOL
CJ

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:00:09 GMT

CJaysMusic

The trained artist will not use a jackhammer to pain the Mona Lisa. It all starts by using the right tools.

yuor putting words in my mouth and by doing that your lying. I said a paint brush. Look and read.

Lying? LOL. :)

I didn't find your analogy appropriate when discussing which tool to use so I proposed one which I feel is more appropriate.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:37:53 GMT

...wicked
And the two times I've sent my stuff out for mastering and gotten to sit that's exactly what they had in their toolbox. In fact I would say it's the preferred tool.

They did not have access to your mix so that is a different situation. Also, they might not be experienced enough or they could more often than not achieve the same results with regular EQ and compression.

Unfortunately some mixes do need multi-band treatment. That is not the case when you can still tweak the mix.

Multi-band compression is certainly not the preferred tool by most mastering engineers.

EQ is static, and limiters don't have the soft finesse of a multiband. What else do you use as a mastering tool, nice language?" />

The Weiss DS-1 is a very nice dynamic EQ. On a smaller budget you can try the Voxengo Gliss EQ. As for limiting, it serves a different purpose than a multi-band compressor.

As for "mastering tool", don't believe the marketing.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:31:03 GMT

The trained artist will not use a jackhammer to pain the Mona Lisa. It all starts by using the right tools.

yuor putting words in my mouth and by doing that your lying. I said a paint brush. Look and read.

If i go up against a trasined mastering engineer, with the same tools and song, he will make a way way better sounding song than me. Why?, just lookbelow...

Heres what i said.
You can give 2 people a paint brush and some paint. One is a trained artist and one is not. You tell them both to paint the mono lisa or any other object or person. Who will paint a better picture 99 out of 100 times??
So maybe undertow is speaking form experience from using the multiband compressor

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:27:28 GMT

Actually they can't. By definition a multi-band compressor affects the full frequency range of your mix. Each band is separated by two filters. The filters are either minimum phase (Think Waves C4) and thus cause phase shifts right through your mix. Or they are phase linear and thus cause pre and post ringing right through your mix.

Undertow, there are mutes and solo buttons on the mutliband compressors also. You can effect only one band when using a multiband.
I never heard any phase shifts when using 1 or 2 of the 4 or 5 bands. I guess you forgott to type in "May" cause, cause you said "and cause" and this isnt right. Your assuming too much. There's an awfull lot of assuming going on here and one should never assume that a multiband will butcher a song when masgtering it.
Thats like saying everyone hates Rap music. yuor assuming too much with no hard data
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:26:32 GMT

CJaysMusic

You can give 2 people a paint brush and some paint. One is a trained artist and one is not. You tell them both to paint the mono lisa or any other object or person.

The trained artist will not use a jackhammer to pain the Mona Lisa. It all starts by using the right tools.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:20:14 GMT

CJaysMusic

IMO you don't need a multi-band compressor when working on your own material. If something needs that type of brutal treatment, fix it in the mix

Undertow, Multi bands are not just for brutal adjustments. They can be used for small critical adjustments without effecting the other band frequencies.

Actually they can't. By definition a multi-band compressor affects the full frequency range of your mix. Each band is separated by two filters. The filters are either minimum phase (Think Waves C4) and thus cause phase shifts right through your mix. Or they are phase linear and thus cause pre and post ringing right through your mix.

Either way a multi-band compressor is a rather brutal tool especially considering that you have full access to the mix.

For example, if you just need or just have a problem with your kids, a multiband compressor can just fix the mids without effecting the high range or low end or lower mid range or higher mid range.

Why would you have a problem with your mids that can not be fixed in the mix? usually this is due to a single instrument that has issues. It will always be less brutal to fix that single instrument issue than to affect ALL instruments in your mix during mastering.

Next up is of course to EQ the full mix. More often than not that is all that is needed. It is VERY unlikely that someone has a dynamic issue in the mids of their mix on ALL instruments and that that somehow was not picked up during mixing but is suddenly picked up while "mastering" the same mix in the same studio on the same monitors by the same person.

Anyway, the whole concept of "mastering" your own mixes in your own studio doesn't really make much sense. Making your mixes louder (for whatever reason), sure. Adjusting mixes to form a whole for an album, sure. You might even want to call that mastering. I would still just revert to the mixes anyway as that always gives more control.

Mastering is typically done by someone else in a different studio. There are good reasons for that.

Also how does one call something brutal when you dont even know the context of the settings and song. It could have a ration of 1:3 with a threshold of -0.5 and a slow attack and slow release and minimal gain reduction. Those settings are not brutal

It is the whole device that is brutal. A bit like using a jackhammer to delicately sculpt marble. You can put the jackhammer on it's lowest setting, you are still using a brutal device that is inappropriate in the vast majortity of situations.

Multi-band compressors have been marketed into popularity. Most high-end mastering engineers rarely use them. Minimum phase EQs, broad-band compressors, limiters, good converters and good monitors in a good space are the usual tools of the trade.

Even when working on other people's material is a multi-band compressor rarely needed.

Undertow, how do you know?? how can you know what other songs need. how can you tell what direction those songs are going?

Like every other ME: Good converters, good monitors, good acoustics and experience.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:17:21 GMT

I like that term. Ghetto Mastering....Nice
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (...wicked)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:14:12 GMT

If we're talking "amount" of compression than yeah, if it needs a lot it sounds like a mix thing.

However, I wouldn't consider doing any kind of "ghetto mastering" without a multiband compressor. And the two times I've sent my stuff out for mastering and gotten to sit that's exactly what they had in their toolbox. In fact I would say it's the preferred tool. EQ is static, and limiters don't have the soft finesse of a multiband. What else do you use as a mastering tool, nice language?" />

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:56:31 GMT

John, you just back up this quote of mine about the artist.
You can give 2 people a paint brush and some paint. One is a trained artist and one is not. You tell them both to paint the mono lisa or any other object or person. Who will paint a better picture 99 out of 100 times??
So maybe undertow is speaking form experience from using the multiband compressor

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (John)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:51:22 GMT

I dont think i ever came across anyone who said lets use this so we can destroy the song.

LOL I don't know about that. Someone has with the loudness wars. " />

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:41:18 GMT

You can give 2 people a paint brush and some paint. One is a trained artist and one is not. You tell them both to paint the mono lisa or any other object or person. Who will paint a better picture 99 out of 100 times??
So maybe undertow is speaking form experience from using the multiband compressor

s not the tools you use, its how you use the tools. If you know what your doing ,your not going to brutalize the song. If your using a multiband compressor, then one is needed. I dont think i ever came across anyone who said lets use this so we can destroy the song.

Multibands are persian tools, not Brutal tools. This is why you can tweak one band without having the other bands effected. you can also tweak the range of the bands to make it as big or small as you need. Its a very precise tool.
Now a regular compressor could be brutal in the mastering stage, cause you have no control over the frequency ranges.
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (John)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:30:08 GMT

Very good points CJ but I think I understand what Undertow is saying. If you do need a lot of work in the mastering phase it may be best to revisit the mix and correct it there. To me mastering should be easy and as simple as possible. I know its not but it should not require heavy handed redoing of the mix either. To me mastering is getting as much "quality" out of the song as possible for distribution. This should be done with a fine small scalpel not a meat cleaver.

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:29:22 GMT

Mids, not Kids... Classic CJ....
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (Dude)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:27:38 GMT

For example, if you just need or just have a problem with your kids, a multiband compressor can just fix

WOW fix the kids " />" />" /> ... I want one!

Dude

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:21:11 GMT

IMO you don't need a multi-band compressor when working on your own material. If something needs that type of brutal treatment, fix it in the mix

Undertow, Multi bands are not just for brutal adjustments. They can be used for small critical adjustments without effecting the other band frequencies.
For example, if you just need or just have a problem with your kids, a multiband compressor can just fix the mids without effecting the high range or low end or lower mid range or higher mid range.

Also how does one call something brutal when you dont even know the context of the settings and song. It could have a ration of 1:3 with a threshold of -0.5 and a slow attack and slow release and minimal gain reduction. Those settings are not brutal

Even when working on other people's material is a multi-band compressor rarely needed.

Undertow, how do you know?? how can you know what other songs need. how can you tell what direction those songs are going?
That's a bunch of marshmallows....
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (UnderTow)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:19:51 GMT

...wicked

Not much. Get thee a multiband compressor, a limiter, and a good linear phase EQ that you like

IMO you don't need a multi-band compressor when working on your own material. If something needs that type of brutal treatment, fix it in the mix. Even when working on other people's material is a multi-band compressor rarely needed.

Linear phase equalisation is also rarely needed. That is a bit of a fad due to marketing. Don't forget that everything is a compromise. Linear phase EQs have their own downside compared to minimum phase designs: Pre-ringing or pre-echo.

UnderTow

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (emwhy)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:47:26 GMT

Let me clarify what I meant up thread. I've been experimenting with mastering for quite some time. Lots of trail error, but could never seem to achieve the sound I wanted. It wasn't until I had the opportunity to sit in on a session or two that I realized where I was making mistakes. I was in the ballpark, but missing a few tweaks that I was able to learn by watching a pro and assimilating his methods into my own. That isn't to say that I haven't read books watched tutorials etc. I have done that and do recommend it as well, but it's only part of the equation. I am lucky enough to teach in a studio part time that does mastering and their engineer was nice enough to let me observe a few of his sessions.

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (CJaysMusic)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:59:34 GMT

Why not watch some brain surgery also. You can watch just about anything. It doesn't replace knowing what your doing. It also doesn't replace the knowledge you get form studying the subject.

If you want to be a parrot, the you can copy what the engineer is doing. but then you better write and compose every song exactly how that one sounds or your SOL
Cj

Re:I think about her when I'm Mastering !! (Jesse G)

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:52:46 GMT

You need deep pockets for a Mastering Engineer to come to your studio to master your tracks with Soanr for you.

That's how it's done.

Peace " />