Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (RTGraham)

Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:55:07 GMT

CJaysMusic

Awh, very cool. Now you see how that method can work.
Cj

I'll have to go back and re-read your posts (and maybe print them to try it out at the DAW itself), because I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around how your suggestion applies to simultaneous export of all stems with each stem's reverb only going to that stem.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (RTGraham)

Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:47:54 GMT

papa2005

The problem is he wants a "one-click" method and that just doesn't exist...Why he's "married" to one-click (and isn't willing to do the proper work) is beyond me....

I *seriously* hesitate to call it "not willing to do the proper work" - it's a matter of time and efficiency. If you're using memory-intensive high-quality orchestral sample libraries that require Fast Bounce to be disabled to render properly, then bouncing stems one at a time becomes a HUGE drain on time resources that could otherwise be put to more productive use. By giving oneself the ability to export all stems at once, it becomes an offline task for just the computer, instead of taking the human offline as well.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (wynnsong)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:07:18 GMT

Hey CJ

For what I need all the stems with their own reverb or send won't work for his needs. The Stems won't have there own reverb printed on it. When I have to stem out a project I select the measures I need to bounce and the select bus for the output. If the piano and strings share reverb or a send going to the same reverb you will hear the piano or strings reverb on it. Unless you can tell Sonar to back and do it one by one I can't see how this will work for his needs. But I guess he can decide.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (CJaysMusic)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:40:18 GMT

Awh, very cool. Now you see how that method can work.
Cj

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:29:03 GMT

I understand what you mean now, thanks CJ!

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (CJaysMusic)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:26:11 GMT

Yea, Papa. But clicking a send on and off is kinda a one click solution. You clcik it on and then off. You do that for each stem you want.

Lets say you have 5 stems (5 bus's) with no effects, just one send to another bus with a reverb. All you need to do is enable the send for the drums stem or any other stem
Cj

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:24:23 GMT

The problem is he wants a "one-click" method and that just doesn't exist...Why he's "married" to one-click (and isn't willing to do the proper work) is beyond me....

Because if I have 15 cues to stem out, that can take HOURS to do manually. And it's such a boring waste of time to sit in front of the computer and bounce for hours at a time. And for the record, it DOES exist! I know several film composers that employ this method. I was just looking for a way that didn't require several identical reverbs running simultaneously.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:22:45 GMT

Hey CJ, the problem is that reverb isn't separated that way. I want each stem to have its own reverb on it. If all stems are going out to a reverb bus, I won't be able to separate the verb out. Isn't that true? I tried testing your method, and it doesn't seem to work for me. It could be that I'm doing something wrong.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (papa2005)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:21:14 GMT

The problem is he wants a "one-click" method and that just doesn't exist...Why he's "married" to one-click (and isn't willing to do the proper work) is beyond me....

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (CJaysMusic)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:17:24 GMT

this is what i said in my first post to you
Make the bus's with no effects for all the stems you want and then make a send on each bus going to a bus with just a reverb on it.

Hey CJ.....That's an interesting work around but I don't think it will achieve what he needs. The reverb bus will have all the other busses reverb in it

not if you do what i said in my first post. You turn the send on for each stem you want
Cj

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:16:42 GMT

RTGraham

rbowser

I feel that the complication for you, Alex, is that for some reason you're wanting to add reverb to your bounced tracks. It's better to keep your project more flexible, with all tracks kept totally dry, reverb processing only happening in real time playback and/or final mix down to 2-track.

It's not bounced *tracks* he's asking about, it's *stems*. Quite often mix engineers are asked to deliver not only a complete mix, but also the stems - and the stems include all tracks that make up the stem as well as the associated effects (including reverb). This is not an uncommon situation.

Exactly.

CJaysMusic

The reverb bus will have all the other busses reverb in it.

Not if you solo the stems, like he wants anyway...
Cj

If I have to manually solo stems out, then I'll be up all night bouncing one file at a time. If I can bounce all stems at once, each with SEPARATE verb on it, I'll be home for dinner, with a much happier girlfriend. " />

mixmkr

solo the stems... nice band name.

" />

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:09:23 GMT

wynnsong

hmmm... Arts is what I would use for low load stuff. I purchased Altiverb and think that sounds best for Orchestra so far. At 64bit I can run it no sweat.
An option might be a UAD card to offload the reverb.

hmmm... Arts is what I would use for low load stuff. I purchased Altiverb and think that sounds best for Orchestra so far. At 64bit I can run it no sweat.
An option might be a UAD card to offload the reverb.

Kev999

Why not put all the woodwind tracks together in a single track folder. Then to solo the woodwind, click on the folder's solo button. Forget about soloing buses.

Or have I misunderstood what you are trying to achieve?

What I'm looking for is the ability to separate all instrument groups with just one click. If I have 8 separate instrument groups, stemming one group at a time by solo'ing track folders can be quite time consuming. Could mean hours of time wasted! I usually lose an entire night of sleep to get a project stemmed out correctly.

RTGraham

Hi Alex -

I've seen many engineers do one-click stem export in various DAWs, but I've never seen them do it without instantiating multiple reverbs. The only way to have a reverb *only* affect a certain stem is to only have that stem sending to it - so you do need a dedicated reverb for each stem.

Here's the good news, though: SONAR does *not* have to be able to handle all of those reverbs in real time. You're doing an offline export. So you can work with one reverb for mixing and monitoring purposes, then COPY THAT REVERB to multiple reverb busses - one bus per stem. To copy an existing effect, while preserving its settings, hold down Ctrl *before* you click and drag the effect to another bin.

For flexibility and speed, you can even have a "monitoring" reverb bus set up, that is shared amongst stem busses, and also have your per-stem reverb busses set up at the same time, with their effect bins bypassed and their bus outputs muted. Each stem would have a send to the common shared reverb, and also a send to its dedicated reverb. While mixing and monitoring, you would leave the common reverb open; while exporting, you would mute the common reverb, unmute the dedicated reverbs, un-bypass their bins, and export. Because it's an offline bounce, SONAR should still export properly even if it would have been too much for your computer to actually handle playing in real time.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! This is a great workaround. I appreciate you sharing your methods!

-Alex

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (RTGraham)

Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:04:29 GMT

rbowser

I feel that the complication for you, Alex, is that for some reason you're wanting to add reverb to your bounced tracks. It's better to keep your project more flexible, with all tracks kept totally dry, reverb processing only happening in real time playback and/or final mix down to 2-track.

It's not bounced *tracks* he's asking about, it's *stems*. Quite often mix engineers are asked to deliver not only a complete mix, but also the stems - and the stems include all tracks that make up the stem as well as the associated effects (including reverb). This is not an uncommon situation.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (rbowser)

Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:12:01 GMT

CJ's simple solution is exactly what I do. Keeping with the Woodwinds example - each instrument is sent to a Woodwinds bus. That bus has a send going to the bus dedicated to reverb. If I want just one reverb unit for the whole project, I only need one instance of the reverb.

I feel that the complication for you, Alex, is that for some reason you're wanting to add reverb to your bounced tracks. It's better to keep your project more flexible, with all tracks kept totally dry, reverb processing only happening in real time playback and/or final mix down to 2-track.

Randy B.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (RTGraham)

Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:40:12 GMT

Hi Alex -

I've seen many engineers do one-click stem export in various DAWs, but I've never seen them do it without instantiating multiple reverbs. The only way to have a reverb *only* affect a certain stem is to only have that stem sending to it - so you do need a dedicated reverb for each stem.

Here's the good news, though: SONAR does *not* have to be able to handle all of those reverbs in real time. You're doing an offline export. So you can work with one reverb for mixing and monitoring purposes, then COPY THAT REVERB to multiple reverb busses - one bus per stem. To copy an existing effect, while preserving its settings, hold down Ctrl *before* you click and drag the effect to another bin.

For flexibility and speed, you can even have a "monitoring" reverb bus set up, that is shared amongst stem busses, and also have your per-stem reverb busses set up at the same time, with their effect bins bypassed and their bus outputs muted. Each stem would have a send to the common shared reverb, and also a send to its dedicated reverb. While mixing and monitoring, you would leave the common reverb open; while exporting, you would mute the common reverb, unmute the dedicated reverbs, un-bypass their bins, and export. Because it's an offline bounce, SONAR should still export properly even if it would have been too much for your computer to actually handle playing in real time.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (mixmkr)

Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:41:54 GMT

solo the stems... nice band name.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (CJaysMusic)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:52:00 GMT

The reverb bus will have all the other busses reverb in it.

Not if you solo the stems, like he wants anyway...
Cj

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (wynnsong)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 23:49:54 GMT

Hey CJ.....That's an interesting work around but I don't think it will achieve what he needs. The reverb bus will have all the other busses reverb in it. My clients want the ability for the stems to work independently with each other (i.e. if you mute the winds stem you won't hear their reverb) and the only way I know how to do that is to use multiple reverbs. It's not a big deal once the template is kosher but if you have to change if for a number of cues it can get problematic....

On some of our projects we have to print 5.1 stems as well as regular stems all sounding "final" that can be a challenge for sure.

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (CJaysMusic)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:16:00 GMT

it shows up without reverb,

Select main outs as your sourse and do it like i said in post # 2. It works
Cj

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (Kev999)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:12:43 GMT

Why not put all the woodwind tracks together in a single track folder. Then to solo the woodwind, click on the folder's solo button. Forget about soloing buses.

Or have I misunderstood what you are trying to achieve?

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (wynnsong)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:50:51 GMT

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (lionstar)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:05:37 GMT

Hi Alex

Are you using one reverb for the woodwinds i.e. setting up different reverb send levels from each woodwind track to one main reverb?
If so you could try inserting the same reverb into each track and use the wet and dry mix in the reverb plugin to set the correct amount of each wind instrument, the either freeze or bounce each track, so when export the stems they will have the reverb printed into the stem.

Hope it helps

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:30:44 GMT

Arts Acoustic? cool. what other reverbs would you suggest that sound good BUT don't smack the processor too bad?

I've been using Sonitus, and not HATING it. Also not loving it.

Thanks!

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (wynnsong)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:27:23 GMT

I know what you are trying to do... I do it all the time Yep you need to have more reverb plugs going on each buss... There are a few good sounding reverb plugs that aren't hard on the processor (Arts Acoustic is one I can think of)...Or go Win 7 x64 and have plenty of horsepower!

Sonar kicks some serious but in x64 land.

It's a pain but one button printing is great. Best of luck!

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:28:16 GMT

yeah, I know that it's a complex process. But with 6 reverbs running simultaneously, it is feasible, provided the stems are straight forward (which they rarely are).

and I am inserting a send on the BRASS bus, going to a separate reverb bus, to test. Is this correct?

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (papa2005)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 04:03:44 GMT

amdrecording

stickman393

What if you solo the instrument bus, but export from master?

That would totally work, except that I'm looking for a one-click stemming solution. If I solo'ed things, I'd have to separately stem all elements out, and it's annoyingly time consuming.

It looks like having 1 reverb/bus is the only solution I can find!

-Alex

There aren't many "one-click" solutions to complex processes such as what you're wanting to do...

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (CP)

Tue, 09 Feb 2010 01:06:53 GMT

Are you inserting a send on the bus to the reverb?

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:00:57 GMT

stickman393

What if you solo the instrument bus, but export from master?

That would totally work, except that I'm looking for a one-click stemming solution. If I solo'ed things, I'd have to separately stem all elements out, and it's annoyingly time consuming.

It looks like having 1 reverb/bus is the only solution I can find!

-Alex

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (stickman393)

Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:51:44 GMT

What if you solo the instrument bus, but export from master?

Re:Bussing and Reverb for Orchestral Template (amdrecording)

Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:24:37 GMT

So I'm not getting this. Let me make sure I'm explaining this correctly:

When I export my audio, I want to be able to choose "Source Category" ... "Buses", then select the specific stems that I want to individually bounce. The problem I'm running into is that if I want to individually bounce a stem (brass or something), it shows up without reverb, even if I create a separate reverb bus with a send... I still can't figure out a solution to this, other than having separate reverbs for each bus.

Would it help if I sent screenshots? CJ- what do you think?

Thanks!