Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons?

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jim Roseberry)

Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:25:55 GMT

Might want to check the Akai MPK88

Yeah... I know about the Akai " />
Not the worst I've seen... but not in league with the best workstation keybeds.
Roland's Fantom G8 and their RD 700GXF "Super Natural" stage piano have the best feeling keybeds I've found... but they're $3200 and $2700 respectively.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Teksonik)

Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:36:19 GMT

There is a Hybrid option as well:

http://www.museresearch.com/

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Teksonik)

Tue, 15 Jun 2010 06:28:22 GMT

bitflipper

OK, Teksonik, you got me on that one. I admit, I do have a few bucks invested in hardware synths. About equal to one moderately high-end microphone, in fact.

I'm so sorry to hear that. I've got far less invested in my computer based synth and it can do so much more...................

I'm just messin with you man. Everyone should use what works best for them. Really what I'm trying to say is that everything is hardware, it's just a different form factor. The signal that reaches the end of my S/PDIF cable is no different in practice than the signal at your Kurzweil's S/PDIF cable. The quality and appeal of the sound of those two signals can be debated ad infinitum or ad nauseam but in the end........to each his own.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (lapieuvre)

Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:23:37 GMT

But I've yet to find a dedicated MIDI controller that plays/feels as good as the best Roland/Korg/Yamaha keybeds.
I'd like a reasonably light-weight 88-key controller (less than 50 pounds) with the best keybed available, nice large display, pitch/mod wheels, at least 8 knobs/sliders, ribon controller, and after-touch... and with road-worthy build quality.

Might want to check the Akai MPK88

As for Softsynths, the change was easy to make. The best sound wins. That is how I got to slowly abandon my hardware keyboards...

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (yorolpal)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 23:34:13 GMT

Thank you for the compliment, Jeff. "Both Ends of Love" actually is a major key R&B tune called "The Wrong Ends of Love" by my ol pal Jeff Grant...better known as Loveshadow in the remix community. I stripped everything except the lead vocal off and, through the use of my ol pal Mel O'Dyne repurposed the song into a minor reggae about Trans-Gender relationship problems. Glad you enjoyed.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jeff Evans)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:58:45 GMT

It can get confusing. There is ROM inside a hardware synth and RAM and sometimes ROM inside a sampler for example. Typical ROM can be 128 Meg or so but Dave's Yamaha has 175 Meg of ROM which is lot. Many patches can be ensued from that much ROM. Kurzweil only has 8 meg of internal ROM yet it yields 200 patches that are all very different and amazing. RAM is for loading samples into and typically 128 or maybe 256 Meg might be the limit there but that is also still a lot as it only has to hold sounds.

Of course virtual samplers running in 64 bit environments are able to access the gigs you are talking about yorolpal. By the way I love your tracks on myspace too and especially
"Both Ends of Love' Its great!

But I do like Yamaha and Roland and Korg hardware synths too. They are nice. Dave's Yamaha sounds very good and Motif is a nice machine too. Of course these would be well suited to live gigs as loading sounds into Kurzweils or EMU samplers is not fun live. Personally I think Roland are the only Japanese maker that seem to come close to the elusive American sound from Kurz and EMU.

The other day I loaded Ensoniq patches into my EMU sampler and nearly fell off my seat. They were just amazing. Now there is an interesting instrument too. Also I have had a brief love affair with a Yamaha sampler (A3000) and also found it to be a beautiful sounding machine but alas it broke. NI Kontakt is the way to go I think!

On cost the time to buy great hardware is now. Older models I mean that still sound great but not worth anything anymore. Still plenty of EMU and Kurzweils for sale on ebay these days for next to nothing.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (yorolpal)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:28:01 GMT

Yea, I sent a consciousness raisin memo to Electronic Musician magazine (you know, the one which...like MIX...has become the size of a grocery store circular) regarding their review of some new hardware synth or rompler thing that had...wait for it... 256 MEGS OF RAM!!! I, being my usual perspicacious self, and, as always, tryin my dead level best to be helpful said why surely that there's a misprint fellers. I'm quite shore you meant 256 GIGS OF RAM...or words to that effect. Funny, they never did respond to me. Not even to say "don't call me Shirley". Probably got lost between servers or some such.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jeff Evans)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:04:00 GMT

Dave I am wondering what sounds do you have for your Kurzweil. Are you using just the internal ROM sounds because that is a far cry from what it really can sound like. Your Yamaha may sound better than the internal Kurz memory (although I still find that hard to believe, but possible as the Yamaha may have an extended ROM)

You need a CD ROM attached and there are literally hundreds of CD ROM libraries for it. (Kurzweil and third party as well) I have got the CD ROM drive and most of the CD's and it sounds gob smacking. Sorry but no comparison to the Yamaha, leaves it in the dust I am afraid. I have some pretty impressive Yamaha keyboards here over time and none of them even came close!

The available library determines how good it sounds. And dont forget the Kurz reads Akai and Roland sounds too and they also sound awesome playing back through the Kurz sound engine.

Can your Yamaha read CD ROMS too? No it seems. Any hardware instrument that relies only on its internal ROM is severely limited. You may think 175 Meg of sound ROM is a lot but it pails compared to tens of gigs of raw materials available through a CD ROM drive.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (bitflipper)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:53:02 GMT

I tried duct tape, but it left sticky residue. And yes, Jeff, the Kurzweil is 32 bits internally, 24/48Khz out or S/PDIF - and I've got one of those, too. But the Yamaha at 24/44.1 still sounds better.

You conveniently skipped the first part about cost...

OK, Teksonik, you got me on that one. I admit, I do have a few bucks invested in hardware synths. About equal to one moderately high-end microphone, in fact.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (John)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:33:17 GMT

I like the duck tape idea. A Red Green approach is appropriate.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Teksonik)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:58:01 GMT

bitflipper

it's internal bit resolution is not likely to change

True, I'm stuck with 24-bit audio forever. Sigh.

You conveniently skipped the first part about cost............." />

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jeff Evans)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:51:28 GMT

Dave just a little note that both Kurzweil and EMU use internal 32 bit processing. The effects are mainly at 24 bit as well. Not bad considering when these things reached their peak. Could explain why they sound so good too.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (yorolpal)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:14:03 GMT

I dunno Bit, ol pal. What if you just duct taped two of them together...wouldn't that be like 48 bits??

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (bitflipper)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:41:34 GMT

it's internal bit resolution is not likely to change

True, I'm stuck with 24-bit audio forever. Sigh.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jim Roseberry)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:32:31 GMT

You will never, ever see me on stage with a friggin' laptop!

I've been using soft-synths exclusively for all my live sounds for well over a year.
I use a Motif XS7 as a MIDI controller. Not only is it better than any dedicated MIDI controller I've ever played, it also provides a backup tone-generator should the PC ever fail (which hasn't happened).

With about a dozen of the best soft-synths, I feel that my rig sounds better than it did when I used hardware synths (Fantom G, M3, Motif ES/XS)... and programming is a whole lot easier.
I think the key to making the transition feel natural is getting more realtime control under the player's fingertips.
If you have the same level of control when playing live, playing soft-synths doesn't feel any different than using hardware.

IMO, We need far better dedicated MIDI controllers than the units currently available.
ie: I'm currently shopping for a (somewhat) light-weight 88-key controller that has all the keyboard/controller features that you'd find on a top-tier workstation.
Sounds simple enough...
But I've yet to find a dedicated MIDI controller that plays/feels as good as the best Roland/Korg/Yamaha keybeds.
I'd like a reasonably light-weight 88-key controller (less than 50 pounds) with the best keybed available, nice large display, pitch/mod wheels, at least 8 knobs/sliders, ribon controller, and after-touch... and with road-worthy build quality.
Right now, the "controller" I like best is the Roland Fantom G 88. I'm not crazy about spending $3200 for an 80 pound controller.
Take this unit... drop the synth engine... reduce the weight to about half... and reduce the cost to about half.
To me... that would be perfect.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Teksonik)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 07:57:03 GMT

bitflipper

I forgot to mention that my (hardware) synthesizers are all 100% 64-bit compatible! For that matter, they'll also be 128-bit compatible when the time comes.

You also forgot to mention how much you paid for your hardware and the fact that it's internal bit resolution is not likely to change. " />

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (bitflipper)

Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:44:47 GMT

I forgot to mention that my (hardware) synthesizers are all 100% 64-bit compatible! For that matter, they'll also be 128-bit compatible when the time comes.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (garrigus)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:00:31 GMT

Lynn

True, as are several of the soft synths that come with Sonar now, I believe. But, please correct me if I'm wrong. The question is: what will CW support in the future? Although I wasn't a fan of Vsampler, I had friends that liked and used it, and they were disappointed when it was no longer included with Sonar. Right now, as we go from a 32 bit universe to a

My point was that since VSampler was from another company, Cakewalk didn't own it. And since they didn't own it, there was no guarantee it would be included in future versions. Any kind of bundled product like that could easily not be included in the future. Those kinds of things are usually deals made for a specific version and that's it. For future inclusion, another deal would have to be made and so on.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/ - http://www.musictechshop.com/ - http://www.cooltechshop.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (aleef)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 20:17:52 GMT

To the extent that the immense flexibility of synthesis can be harnessed, there is a potential (capability) to be more expressive than an acoustic instrument. The question is why this is not generally realized in synthetic music.

it has and the results were less than musical...or should i say people didnt care for the sound. you can come up with some new type of sound that gets peoples attention, doesn't mean it struck a chord with them..i have seen those keyboardist/synthesist on stage surrounded by 100 different synths, being an entire orchestra with all these electronic/synthetic washes of sound..its still just masterbatory pyro-gadgetry.

there is no more exteded range to reach for synthetically..all synthetic possibilities have been exhausted since 1985..your outlook is musically noble, but it sure is not new. just because synthesis can do everything and more doesnt mean it should.. i feel too much has been given to synthesis..it has replaced just about all the integral elements that make great records...

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Lynn)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 20:08:50 GMT

garrigus

VSampler wasn't actually a Cakewalk product. It was created by a different company and then bundled with SONAR.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/ - http://www.musictechshop.com/ - http://www.cooltechshop.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free i2i Stream Wireless Music Pack, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

True, as are several of the soft synths that come with Sonar now, I believe. But, please correct me if I'm wrong. The question is: what will CW support in the future? Although I wasn't a fan of Vsampler, I had friends that liked and used it, and they were disappointed when it was no longer included with Sonar. Right now, as we go from a 32 bit universe to a 64 bit universe there are issues with the lack of support for the new format. I think that it would be in CW's best interest to support those synths that they include with their software to the best of their ability. Otherwise, it could be a turnoff to future customers if synths come and go. One of the things I like about my Korg synths is the fact that over the years Korg kept improving the architecture and sounds of their products, while at the same time, anyone who could get around on a M1 can get around on a M3. I hope that it goes so well for CW.
Best to all,
Lynn

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (garrigus)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:46:23 GMT

VSampler wasn't actually a Cakewalk product. It was created by a different company and then bundled with SONAR.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/ - http://www.musictechshop.com/ - http://www.cooltechshop.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free SoundTech Vocal Trainer Package, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free i2i Stream Wireless Music Pack, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Lynn)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:21:41 GMT

It's really hard to predict what CW will be supporting in the future. It was just a few years ago in SP3 that CW introduced Vsampler, and then it was gone a year later. I do remember that it was one of the least intuitive pieces of software I've come across. Perhaps they'll include the full version of Rapture in the future as they did with DPro. I don't think DPro is going away anytime soon, but they have issues with it that they'll have to deal with, hopefully. Session Drummer has been the dealmaker for me. It has completely upgraded my percussion. I'm glad to see that CW is continuing to develop hardware. It's always good to have hardware that plays well with it's own software. My question is: how long will it be before they introduce a brain to software interface that eliminates a physical controller all together?
Best to all,
Lynn

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (John)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:24:09 GMT

Synths are better in numbers and they need to conspire to say something great. Why not love all of it and not single out anything against the other. The more music you like the more you will enjoy what it is you are listening to.

Here you and I are of the same mind. My first post on this thread was that I like software and hardware. I like real and not so real instruments. I like music. However it comes to me.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jeff Evans)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:07:56 GMT

Very good point Tripecac This brings up another very interesting point. The life of a soft synth. It is something that I have not though of so much. What happens to existing software synths in future versions of Sonar. Are they always going to be supported with only new models being added or do they drop existing soft synths in the future.

Also if you have Absynth or Massive or FM8 for example (or any great soft synth) what guarantee is there that you will be able to install it in newer versions of operating systems. And will soft synth companies actaully keep updating the older soft synths into the latest OS systems.

The hardware may have a longer life than the software counterpart. Older hardware has its issues too with LCD displays (wearing out now) and the like. I think we have to be ready for a situation where we learn a software instrument and have it for a limited time and then make music with it but be prepared to drop it at some stage and learn a new one! Its not so bad. If you do some learning on synthesis techniques there are very strong similarities between many soft synths.

I think it is very important to turn all soft synth parts into audio at least then you will always have those parts available for remixing etc. I think audio will always find a way to be imported into what every DAW we may be using at the time.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Tripecac)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:43:52 GMT

Which of the synths are likely to be supported in Sonar 5 or 10 years from now?

Stratman70 mentioned "the untimely demise of Dim Pro"; does that mean Dimension Pro is getting discontinued?

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Jeff Evans)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:38:17 GMT

This thread has moved from hardware compared to software synths into acoustic and electronic instruments. My previous post was concentrating on the availability of a lot of expressive ways to influence sound. There is much more expression than ever before. But to say electronic instruments individually are as good as or superior to acoustic instruments well I don’t agree with that. (only now though, keep an open mind)

I think that acoustic instruments have got an unlimited sound repertoire almost and the variations in expression during performance are infinite as well. With electronic instruments there are limits too.

Take the Brad Mehldau trio for example. (Jazz piano, bass and drums) There is a lot of acoustic subtleness and variations in this. You could maybe do a very good synth approximation but it would take a month of Sundays. Whereas they played it in 9 minutes. And it is probably the preferred option. I think we all agree that synths tend to fall short when they are trying to imitate the sound of lifetime acoustic practice and performance.

But they can make different sounds and that is where they are interesting. It’s also about making different and interesting music too not just the sounds. They can do it and with lots of expression. John mentions latency and you cannot hear it until you hit play. That is an interesting point. But electronic performances can also be totally live and in the spur of the moment too. Tangerine Dream comes to mind doing a live concert. Fiddling around in software is a much slower way to do it. (And it is getting very technical hence the large learning curves for computers and software) It can still yield results though.

Whether the music is electronic or acoustic, live or listening to a CD, it still comes down to how one feels emotionally while you are listening to the music. If the same emotions can be felt listening to electronic music then it means it is just as valid and just as good too. And those feelings were being transferred even in the mid to late 70’s and early 80’s when there was a total lack of expression in electronic instruments and the creators of the music had to work really hard to make it expressive and emotive.

Synths are better in numbers and they need to conspire to say something great. Why not love all of it and not single out anything against the other. The more music you like the more you will enjoy what it is you are listening to.

What I am into these days is a huge union between composed and improvised, electronic performances and programming etc and live musicians. World musicians, electronic music and jazz. It can be done and the blend is very interesting and Sonar does not have any problems making it happen either. And back to the OP you can do it with the synths provided with Sonar (and other add ons of course) as well as some great sounding external hardware as well. Its all good.

As long as humans are involved I think its all right.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (yorolpal)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:02:08 GMT

John

yorolpal

John

Jeff, you miss my point. I am saying that synths are much more capable of expression than any acoustic instrument.
I wouldn't go that far. They are quite capable of expression but to say that a synth is more expressive then a violin for example or even a sax is it bit hard to agree to.

What? You've never heard Clara Rockmore play the theremin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSzTPGlNa5U&feature=related

That was low blow and you know it. LOL

But that's the kind of blow (these days) that I'm so good at. " />

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (aleef)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:45:43 GMT

i have never been able to afford the high-end hardware workstations.. and for the price of some of them, you can build a high-end DAW and have change left over for the good 3rd party stuff..its a no-brainer. the downside is the learning curve, that seems to never go away.. it takes me days and alot of trial and error to figure out things e.g: (advanced editing)real workflow killer. i was way more productive in my workstation/analog tape days.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (slartabartfast)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:27:28 GMT

I have not used the Triton, but for flexibility, variety and expression either Z3TA+ or Rapture should blow away any box with a keyboard. For usability not so much. Combining ease of use with expression and variety is a very difficult task. Nothing is easier than pushing a button to load a preset. For noodling, I still use my Yamaha SY 77 (sort of a really limited Dimension in a box with 16 bit samples).

In the broadest sense Sonar itself is a humongous additive synthesizer. It is possible to use a softsynth instance as a single sound source (oscillator) and mix it with other softsynths on unlimited separate tracks each controlled by it's own midi track to result in one highly controllable voice. That lets you use the sophisticated automation, effects, filters etc. of Sonar to control the final sound. But that is not anything like real time playing of a softsynth as a sound module driven by a midi keyboard.

Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? (Tripecac)

Sun, 13 Jun 2010 15:23:31 GMT

Which of the soft synths included with Sonar 8.5 Producer would you recommend as a starting point for comparing them against hardware (e.g., Triton), in terms of sound quality, variety, expression, and usability?