why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar???

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (NoKey)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:23:46 GMT

info@tomflair.com

NoKey

Hi Tom,

I don't recall you posting this:

"However, if you use the Sysx View (which can store up to 8,192 banks of SysEx messages), there is a way to 'embed' triggers for the SysEx banks in a track, and have them play back at any time."

,.... which the article above details, and explains how you can circumvent some limits.

please nokey - i know you wanna help me :-) but this detail doesnt change the fact that the procedure itself is way to complicated ...its STILL the 12 steps i mentioned in the other thread (or at least step 7 to 12) - there is nothing to do about it..NO other approach - NO workaround THIS is the ONLY available routine to get a midi dump bigger than 255byte anywheer in a miditrack

1: open sysex-view
2: arm the recieving status
3: select the way how the signal transmission is activated
4: send dump from synth
5: confirm dump has been fully transmitted
6: remember the bank number (because names are not displayed later in the event insert !!!)
7: select a midiclip
8: open the event list
9: insert an event pressing "ins"
10 :choose eventtype
11: choose number of eventtype
12: specify the time of the event - because in contrary to the manuals claim the inserted event is NOT where the nowtime is allocated but at the end of the selcted clip...

best regards

Yes, I believe everybody tried to help you.

And I still believe that the best help offered was to use banks and patch numbers, as your module allows, and Sonar allows, and is much quicker.

But you did not seem to like that idea because you already had one choice made.

That's beats anything anyone can offer; and my sincere wish is that it does not beat you.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (rbowser)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:32:45 GMT

"...btw. the fb01 - lol - i hope you dont get offended if i say that i hated it ;-) this little greyish box that sounded like a mutilated dx7..."

hehe--I hear you, Tom. It was a pretty funky box. But at the time, I was happy to have its little 4 op FM sound available to layer in with my other synths.

I appreciate your new post. Good luck with your projects, because Yes - it's time to make music!

Randy B.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:51:41 GMT

rbowser

Oh well. In my own way, I was trying to be helpful. Even though it's usually true that it's nearly impossible to convince someone to try a different approach, I thought I'd try to encourage you to try the more usual way of doing what you need, Tom, since wrestling with this Sysex approach has obviously been so maddening for you.

Speaking for myself, I didn't mean that what you're trying to do is the "wrong" way so much as the less efficient way. I think that would be difficult to disagree with, since in post after post you've been showing us how convoluted and laborious your approach is. And we've been trying to point out that all that hassle can be avoided with the simple, straight forward Patch Change approach.

I doubt if what you're asking for would be a feature request that would be taken very seriously, but of course I could be wrong.

The SysEx view is extremely helpful. Once your customized data is parked in there, it becomes part of your project, and any number of hardware synths can be quickly set the way you want when you open up the project.

Nobody's been suggesting you shouldn't use that- it's the only efficient way to tie hardware synths into your projects.

If you have custom patches for a project, those can also be in that Sysex dump, setting User Patches slots in your synths the way you need.Then during the course of the song, all you need to have are Program Changes as needed. Any specialized Sysex required for the song will already have been sent to the synths before you pushed Play.

The SysEx information posted on this thread from the Help files goes Way back. But I'm sure you'd already studied all that since you've spent days thoroughly exploring what's available in Sonar. And you already saw for yourself that the small macro dumps during a sequence weren't what you needed.

Nostalgia - this thread has been nostalgic, taking me back to the days when all I used were hardware synths. I hadn't thought so much about those times in a long time before reading this thread.

Here's one scenario I've remembered now which called for a full Sysex dump during the course of a sequence -

The Yamaha FB-01. Remember that unit? 8 voice synth which was multi-timbral, but which didn't dynamically allocate the voices. You had to assign each instrument how many voices you wanted it to have - Bass, 1 note, Lead one note - etc. Well there were times when I wanted the entire configuration in FB-01 to change during the course of a song - I'd come to a point, for instance, where I needed all 8 of the synth's voices to be assigned to one instrument. The only way to do that would be to send out a complete re-configuration. Other synths would be carrying the music along while I sent out that data dump.

But that was using a hardware sequencer, it was way before I had Cakewalk. All I had to do was enable Sysex recording, push record, and send the data dump from the synth to the sequencer.

Now it's a different world, and I primarily use soft synths. On the rare occasions when I'll use one of my old hardware synths, Sonar's SysEx View serves me well. And if I'd need to change patch data during the course of a sequence - I'd do that in an instant via Program Change.

I hope you get back to working with your music soon, Tom. It's been an interesting thread. I wish you the best.

Randy B.

hello - i appreciate your statements :-) actually as i said many ways lead to rome - and maybe i just go a little irritated here because (truly) i never ever before had thoughth of my method as something "unusual" - thats why i continued to point out how esily this was to do with other apps...thats just my point - eventually if people here had also done this before they wouldnt have reacted so sceptically - thats why from the beginning i asked not to question my motvation (cos it inst founded in booze or madness ;-) )

but anywy - who wants to carry positive information out of this thraed can do so - o its all ok ...

btw. the fb01 - lol - i hope you dont get offended if i say that i hated it ;-) this little greyish box that sounded like a mutilated dx7 ...

best regards - and yeah - its time to make music i guess

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (rbowser)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:27:44 GMT

Oh well. In my own way, I was trying to be helpful. Even though it's usually true that it's nearly impossible to convince someone to try a different approach, I thought I'd try to encourage you to try the more usual way of doing what you need, Tom, since wrestling with this Sysex approach has obviously been so maddening for you.

Speaking for myself, I didn't mean that what you're trying to do is the "wrong" way so much as the less efficient way. I think that would be difficult to disagree with, since in post after post you've been showing us how convoluted and laborious your approach is. And we've been trying to point out that all that hassle can be avoided with the simple, straight forward Patch Change approach.

I doubt if what you're asking for would be a feature request that would be taken very seriously, but of course I could be wrong.

The SysEx view is extremely helpful. Once your customized data is parked in there, it becomes part of your project, and any number of hardware synths can be quickly set the way you want when you open up the project.

Nobody's been suggesting you shouldn't use that- it's the only efficient way to tie hardware synths into your projects.

If you have custom patches for a project, those can also be in that Sysex dump, setting User Patches slots in your synths the way you need.Then during the course of the song, all you need to have are Program Changes as needed. Any specialized Sysex required for the song will already have been sent to the synths before you pushed Play.

The SysEx information posted on this thread from the Help files goes Way back. But I'm sure you'd already studied all that since you've spent days thoroughly exploring what's available in Sonar. And you already saw for yourself that the small macro dumps during a sequence weren't what you needed.

Nostalgia - this thread has been nostalgic, taking me back to the days when all I used were hardware synths. I hadn't thought so much about those times in a long time before reading this thread.

Here's one scenario I've remembered now which called for a full Sysex dump during the course of a sequence -

The Yamaha FB-01. Remember that unit? 8 voice synth which was multi-timbral, but which didn't dynamically allocate the voices. You had to assign each instrument how many voices you wanted it to have - Bass, 1 note, Lead one note - etc. Well there were times when I wanted the entire configuration in FB-01 to change during the course of a song - I'd come to a point, for instance, where I needed all 8 of the synth's voices to be assigned to one instrument. The only way to do that would be to send out a complete re-configuration. Other synths would be carrying the music along while I sent out that data dump.

But that was using a hardware sequencer, it was way before I had Cakewalk. All I had to do was enable Sysex recording, push record, and send the data dump from the synth to the sequencer.

Now it's a different world, and I primarily use soft synths. On the rare occasions when I'll use one of my old hardware synths, Sonar's SysEx View serves me well. And if I'd need to change patch data during the course of a sequence - I'd do that in an instant via Program Change.

I hope you get back to working with your music soon, Tom. It's been an interesting thread. I wish you the best.

Randy B.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 09:18:08 GMT

daveny5

OK... we get it. So why not submit it as a feature request to the Sonar developers for a future release. That's how changes get made.

yes - thats a positive suggestion - thanks :-)

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (daveny5)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 09:13:31 GMT

OK... we get it. So why not submit it as a feature request to the Sonar developers for a future release. That's how changes get made.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 09:05:13 GMT

NoKey

Hi Tom,

I don't recall you posting this:

"However, if you use the Sysx View (which can store up to 8,192 banks of SysEx messages), there is a way to 'embed' triggers for the SysEx banks in a track, and have them play back at any time."

,.... which the article above details, and explains how you can circumvent some limits.

please nokey - i know you wanna help me :-) but this detail doesnt change the fact that the procedure itself is way to complicated ...its STILL the 12 steps i mentioned in the other thread (or at least step 7 to 12) - there is nothing to do about it..NO other approach - NO workaround THIS is the ONLY available routine to get a midi dump bigger than 255byte anywheer in a miditrack

1: open sysex-view
2: arm the recieving status
3: select the way how the signal transmission is activated
4: send dump from synth
5: confirm dump has been fully transmitted
6: remember the bank number (because names are not displayed later in the event insert !!!)
7: select a midiclip
8: open the event list
9: insert an event pressing "ins"
10 :choose eventtype
11: choose number of eventtype
12: specify the time of the event - because in contrary to the manuals claim the inserted event is NOT where the nowtime is allocated but at the end of the selcted clip...

best regards

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (NoKey)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 05:40:27 GMT

Hi Tom,

I don't recall you posting this:

"However, if you use the Sysx View (which can store up to 8,192 banks of SysEx messages), there is a way to 'embed' triggers for the SysEx banks in a track, and have them play back at any time."

,.... which the article above details, and explains how you can circumvent some limits.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 04:15:32 GMT

Susan G

Hi-

I agree with Frank, FWIW. It's not as though if enough people pile on and tell Tom he's doing it "wrong" he'll suddenly see the "error of his ways". He's repeated what he wants to be able to do, and that he can do it in other sequencers, and that he wishes he could do it just as easily in SONAR, simple as that. There's no reason at all to ridicule him, IMO.

I almost always use an auto-send bank in Sysex Manager to set up my Motif with channels going to different audio outs, etc., and I'm really glad that feature's available. I've never tried recording sysex in real time, but I do remember a while ago wondering why SONAR couldn't load/play back a .syx file in a MIDI track. That was basically just idle curiosity, since I had no need for it to, but it is possible in other sequencers. The largest sysex file I've played back that way contained 4244 bytes, but I don't know what the practical limit is, since that was my Motif's complete bulk dump.

The Sysx Banks can contain "one or more very large System Exclusive messages", but I also remember running into SONAR's 255-byte Data Event limit during my idle experiments. I'm sure there's a reason for the limit, but I don't know what it is. I suspect it's a "computer thing", much like the 128-byte limit on Text Events. Which isn't to say it couldn't be upped.

Tom, if SONAR let you insert a .syx file as a MIDI clip anywhere you wanted that might be a partial solution (?) -- assuming I'm reading you right (you'd still have to record it somehow, obviously).

I don't know how much support there'd be for it (not too much, judging from this thread!" />), but I guess the only way you could really do what you want is if they increase the Data Event size limit.

-Susan

thanks a lot susan - it really helps me that a few people join in and defend (or at least understand) my point of view :-)
if i am right now its 4:4 in this thread - LOL
funny anyway that people haveo to claim something is silly just because they never used it (or had the chance to use it cos it doesnt work easily within their application)
and obviously i never wanted toc onvert anyone to something that they dont like - but why would they want to convert me by suggestibg that my approach is weird?
a mad world isnt it ? ;-)

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 04:05:50 GMT

NoKey

Maybe this will help you Tom,

"
Recording & Playing Back SysEx
Here's a tip that applies to older versions of Sonar as well as Sonar 4. If you use outboard MIDI gear with Sonar, you're probably taking advantage of system exclusive messages to save their patches and setups. If 'System Exclusive' is ticked under Options / Global / MIDI, Sonar can record SysEx data into a MIDI track and play it back. Unfortunately, the message length limit is 255 bytes — enough to send a control setting or similar, but certainly not enough for even the most modestly-sized MIDI synthesizer preset. However, if you use the Sysx View (which can store up to 8,192 banks of SysEx messages), there is a way to 'embed' triggers for the SysEx banks in a track, and have them play back at any time.
The event list shows two events that trigger playback of SysEx banks. Note that Global Options has been set to record system exclusive data.
The event list shows two events that trigger playback of SysEx banks. Note that Global Options has been set to record system exclusive data.
If you're not familiar with the Sysx View, see the July 2002 Sonar Notes; it's a window you call up by going View / Sysx, and it serves as a recorder/playback library for MIDI SysEx messages. It also lets you rename, store, load, auto-send (ie. certain messages can be sent when you open a project), and even edit SysEx messages, which can be as short as a single preset or as long as an entire bulk dump. The contents of the Sysx View are saved with a project.
To play back a SysEx bank from within a track, place the 'Now' time where you want Sonar to send the data, then open up the MIDI track's Event List view by going View / Event List (or typing Alt-4). Next, hit the computer keyboard's Insert key to insert an Event into the Event List at the 'Now' time position.
Double-click in the Event's 'Kind' field. When the 'Kind of Event' window appears, check 'Sysx Bank' under Special, then click on 'OK'. In the Event List entry's Data field, enter the number of the SysEx bank that should play back at this particular 'Now' time. When the project plays back and the 'Now' time arrives at the position you specified, the SysEx data will play back.
Sending a big bulk dump will take a while, and some instruments may 'choke' when receiving one from Sonar. If all you need to do is change a patch, you're probably better off saving individual patches as SysEx banks and triggering them. So wouldn't it be easier just to insert program changes instead? Yes, except that this assumes you have the same presets loaded into your instrument that were loaded when you inserted the program change command. If you edit and tweak programs a lot, that may not be the case. By sending SysEx, you're sending the actual program data itself, not just something that calls up a particular memory slot. If you save your outboard gear parameters in Sonar, as long as you back up your project you've also backed up the data needed to recreate the project — which is highly recommended.

********************************

The webpage is:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan05/articles/sonarnotes.htm

LOL - well thanks for trying to help me (your good intention) but this is EXCATLY the link i already posted MYSELF in order to describe what happens within sonar in POST nr.14

:-)

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Susan G)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:55:46 GMT

Hi-

I agree with Frank, FWIW. It's not as though if enough people pile on and tell Tom he's doing it "wrong" he'll suddenly see the "error of his ways". He's repeated what he wants to be able to do, and that he can do it in other sequencers, and that he wishes he could do it just as easily in SONAR, simple as that. There's no reason at all to ridicule him, IMO.

I almost always use an auto-send bank in Sysex Manager to set up my Motif with channels going to different audio outs, etc., and I'm really glad that feature's available. I've never tried recording sysex in real time, but I do remember a while ago wondering why SONAR couldn't load/play back a .syx file in a MIDI track. That was basically just idle curiosity, since I had no need for it to, but it is possible in other sequencers. The largest sysex file I've played back that way contained 4244 bytes, but I don't know what the practical limit is, since that was my Motif's complete bulk dump.

The Sysx Banks can contain "one or more very large System Exclusive messages", but I also remember running into SONAR's 255-byte Data Event limit during my idle experiments. I'm sure there's a reason for the limit, but I don't know what it is. I suspect it's a "computer thing", much like the 128-byte limit on Text Events. Which isn't to say it couldn't be upped.

Tom, if SONAR let you insert a .syx file as a MIDI clip anywhere you wanted that might be a partial solution (?) -- assuming I'm reading you right (you'd still have to record it somehow, obviously).

I don't know how much support there'd be for it (not too much, judging from this thread!" />), but I guess the only way you could really do what you want is if they increase the Data Event size limit.

-Susan

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (ba_midi)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:46:41 GMT

its like the way it often happens here: sonar cant do it? so if you want to do it anyway you must be an idiot....and even mentioning that in many other "worlds" it works like a charm seems NOT to be a valid argument ...what shoudl one do with such posters?

Well, first - "meta events" (which I didn't read up much on) sounded like it might be of some use, but I guess not if you've checked all that out.   I don't know, maybe there is a way to circumvent the 255byte limit. I actually didn't see a reference to that limit in what I was reading, but I didn't go too deep.

As for the other stuff - I have been trying to teach myself to simply ignore anything that comes off inappropriate or insensitive on forums.   Mostly because I think it's too easy to mis-read things since we can't hear people's tone. While some tonality certainly comes through even in type, it's still possible to get it wrong.

But, I just try to stick to the substance as best I can. We're all human, so it's not always easy, but the effort is worth it.

Sometimes I read what I might think are dumb posts, but then I realize someone might think I'm dumb too ;)   We don't always know what we don't know, and don't always 'get' that we don't (or others don't) 'get it'.

Well, I wish I had more suggestions for ya on the sysex thing.   Perhaps finding a workaround for now isn't such a bad idea.

Be well.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (NoKey)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:44:17 GMT

Maybe this will help you Tom,

"
Recording & Playing Back SysEx
Here's a tip that applies to older versions of Sonar as well as Sonar 4. If you use outboard MIDI gear with Sonar, you're probably taking advantage of system exclusive messages to save their patches and setups. If 'System Exclusive' is ticked under Options / Global / MIDI, Sonar can record SysEx data into a MIDI track and play it back. Unfortunately, the message length limit is 255 bytes — enough to send a control setting or similar, but certainly not enough for even the most modestly-sized MIDI synthesizer preset. However, if you use the Sysx View (which can store up to 8,192 banks of SysEx messages), there is a way to 'embed' triggers for the SysEx banks in a track, and have them play back at any time.
The event list shows two events that trigger playback of SysEx banks. Note that Global Options has been set to record system exclusive data.
The event list shows two events that trigger playback of SysEx banks. Note that Global Options has been set to record system exclusive data.
If you're not familiar with the Sysx View, see the July 2002 Sonar Notes; it's a window you call up by going View / Sysx, and it serves as a recorder/playback library for MIDI SysEx messages. It also lets you rename, store, load, auto-send (ie. certain messages can be sent when you open a project), and even edit SysEx messages, which can be as short as a single preset or as long as an entire bulk dump. The contents of the Sysx View are saved with a project.
To play back a SysEx bank from within a track, place the 'Now' time where you want Sonar to send the data, then open up the MIDI track's Event List view by going View / Event List (or typing Alt-4). Next, hit the computer keyboard's Insert key to insert an Event into the Event List at the 'Now' time position.
Double-click in the Event's 'Kind' field. When the 'Kind of Event' window appears, check 'Sysx Bank' under Special, then click on 'OK'. In the Event List entry's Data field, enter the number of the SysEx bank that should play back at this particular 'Now' time. When the project plays back and the 'Now' time arrives at the position you specified, the SysEx data will play back.
Sending a big bulk dump will take a while, and some instruments may 'choke' when receiving one from Sonar. If all you need to do is change a patch, you're probably better off saving individual patches as SysEx banks and triggering them. So wouldn't it be easier just to insert program changes instead? Yes, except that this assumes you have the same presets loaded into your instrument that were loaded when you inserted the program change command. If you edit and tweak programs a lot, that may not be the case. By sending SysEx, you're sending the actual program data itself, not just something that calls up a particular memory slot. If you save your outboard gear parameters in Sonar, as long as you back up your project you've also backed up the data needed to recreate the project — which is highly recommended.

********************************

The webpage is:
http://www.soundonsound.c...rticles/sonarnotes.htm

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:23:25 GMT

ba_midi

Tom,

I'd be curious to know if any of that help stuff I posted was of any use.
The more I read it, the more it seems there are some things you can do - albeit not as clearly as one might think initially.

PS - don't get all hung up about the other attitudes you sense. Some of the guys are actually trying to be helpful, but it tends to come off harsh when just 'reading it.'

Only because I've seen how helpful some of them can be, do I know that they actually mean it with good intentions. Separate the style from the substance if ya can ;)

Anyway - I really am curious if any of the meta-events and other sysex stuff in that help file is of any use to ya.

hello & thanks --- umfortunately it looks like the the restriction of 255byte per dump in track mode is just there without any chance to do anything about it...
as i have posted before i have now read everything that i could find and done all sort of testing but there definitely is only the 12 steps procedure that i have described in detail in the other thread...actuyll you are right what should i care - but what really makes me angry is all those pretentious assumptions on what is right or what works...
the worst thing s that people here try to enforce the "truth" that there is something "complicated" or whatever about my approach - so i dont know ehats complicated on pressing "dump" on a synth and then having a sound saved wherever one likes it within less than a second....
look: its like the way it often happens here: sonar cant do it? so if you want to do it anyway you must be an idiot....and even mentioning that in many other "worlds" it works like a charm seems NOT to be a valid argument ...what shoudl one do with such posters?

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (ba_midi)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:12:47 GMT

Tom,

I'd be curious to know if any of that help stuff I posted was of any use.
The more I read it, the more it seems there are some things you can do - albeit not as clearly as one might think initially.

PS - don't get all hung up about the other attitudes you sense. Some of the guys are actually trying to be helpful, but it tends to come off harsh when just 'reading it.'

Only because I've seen how helpful some of them can be, do I know that they actually mean it with good intentions. Separate the style from the substance if ya can ;)

Anyway - I really am curious if any of the meta-events and other sysex stuff in that help file is of any use to ya.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:01:47 GMT

thanks bamidi - and thansk to frank & to nokey

and to all others:

its pretty INCREDIBLE how arrogant people can be:

1: you obviously semm to JUST DONT GET THE POINT
2 you obviously lack the knowledege that what i want to do (as frank said) is TOTALLY normal
3: because you dont use it it doesnt mean its not good
4: if you think its so silly dont use it, and LEAVE ME ALONE
5: people seem NOT to fully read postings or threads and still they reply all sort of stuff.

6; i have specified that i have thoroughly investigated and completely described the ONLY whay sonar habndles what i want

7: its definitely NOT up to any of you wise guys to question my workflow

8: my workflow is completely supproted by other apps

9: ther is a proverb here saying : "the farmer doesnt eat what he doesnt know" this obviously apllies to some folks here - and its nothing to be proud of

if its all so stupid why does sonar support a crippled way of doing it anyway?

this thread just OBVIOUSLY is degenerating like most threads thanks to folks who (might even having a helpful intention) just mix all up and instead of helping make picky remarks

remember: just because YOU dont know something or YOU dont like something it doesnt mean a thing - i didnt ask for any "personal tastes" here - i asked for a procedure - thats it ...
also i have now 100% of the knowledge about this particular issue - so please dont come up with further "ides" or hints what could "eventually" be done or work - cos it wont!

this kind of thread again shows why this forum is such a "particular" place - there are forums where "all" people try to help instead of suggesting that a user with a request is a fool.

is it so hard to accept that i have been usin sysex dumps of single sounds in the middle of many songs for many years on many synths in many applications - with no data hickups, never realzing it could/should be different in sonar?

obviously now a few people will feel offended and say that i am an ungreatful guy and that still my workflow is crap...guys what should i say to you? - rational people would just say "intersting way of using this-thanks for the idea, but eventualy it still doesnt fit my own workflow"

but what do i know anyway - guess i have been earning money making music in the last 15 yeras and being pretty well informed about themes regarding this just by luck
because if i read some replies here suggesting that i must be somehow silly i wonder how i have done it

also its funny that one can post as accurate and detailed infos as possible and still people will nag about something that isnt even fact related

any other suggestions on what i should use or how?
i could post a list of my effective working routines and then you can post replies if YOU think they are "OK" because you knew them

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (ba_midi)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:50:39 GMT

Here's a snippet from the F1 help file ...

You don’t need to use Sysx meta-events for sending System Exclusive information at the beginning of your project. Instead, use the Auto option for System Exclusive banks. Banks that are marked Auto are transmitted automatically by SONAR when it loads the project file they are stored in. Use the Sysx meta-event only when you need to send a Sysx Bank during the middle of the project.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (ba_midi)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:44:13 GMT

I was reading the built-in help (F1 when in Sonar) and searched on Sysex.

There are a few sections about recording and playing back sysex data in REALTIME. So Tom - you may want to revisit those help sections.

Also - In GLOBAL OPTIONS->MIDI there's a check box for Recording Sysex data and the ability to set the # of buffers.

I don't know if Tom's looked at all this, but in case he hasn't, I'm mentioning it now.

Seems there might be a way, but I didn't read everything (due to time constraints).

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (frankandfree)

Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:02:18 GMT

Check the other thread Tom made. Using the SysEx window needs a much longer procedure than recording the dump. That's what I call cumbersome and unnecessary, when you could just record the dump instead.

I may have misunderstood Tom's intend, he indeed seems to want to send the dump mid-song. Still, to me the question whether it is recommendable or necessary to use dumps during a running song is subordinate. Bottom line is that it is overly tedious to handle SysEx from Sonar's SysEx window compared to how easy it would be on the timeline if it just was possible.

Short dumps should either be record-able on tracks or the SysEx window should be streamlined a lot for this task. I'd think it'd be far easier for the devs to up the track's buffer limit a bit than to renew the SysEx window.

I didn't find your previous post humorous in this thread's context, but patronizing. Who asked you to make assumtions about Tom's momentary state of mind? Other's find it funny, even excellent I figure.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (NoKey)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 23:43:51 GMT

One other thing that for some hardware synths and equipment, sending a sysex actually CHANGES the patches and leaves them as such. Thus the idea of not changing original patches by using sysex may not be too valid.

I know one of my older Yamaha synths came with factory presets plus "user presets"....The users presets were actually just copies of factory presets. But once one changes the user presets, in any way, there was no easy way to set them back to "factory condition". So with the module in the discussion, it seems to me that once a sysex is sent that modifies the preset, it pretty much stays that way, even if turned off and back on? So to put it back to factory condition, a sysex needs to be sent to it to put it back to zero time...And with the aproach of changing presets from songs, the module becomes "song-dependent", meaning one never really knows its state. Sounds to me a difficult way to handle it, but I am not the owner, just saying my thoughts.

However, and for whatever reasons, Info-Tom, I will say again that I belive that there likely are Sysex buffer adjustments in Sonar that could be preventing what you want to do. I recall reading about. Maybe it was for older versions, but it does not mean that the newer Sonars do not have that option.

The other thing I am still unclear on is that dumps are mentioned, along with preset changes via Sysex, and that's because dumps are usually done by a command type or file script, and is not necesarily put in the middle of a MIDI song or MIDI file..Dumps are usually a one shot, independent operation, to prepare a MIDI module or to save its data. So if that's confirmed in other softwares, I am not clear if exactly what is intended is also possible and easy to do in those other softwares.

Anyhow, Tom, if you still want to do it in Sonar, you might want to check to see what options there are for Sysex buffers.

Good luck.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (rbowser)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 23:17:44 GMT

"...Randy, another excellent post sir. I had fun reading it..." Thanks, John! I was hoping that with a bit of humor I could help Info realize that he's over-complicating things for himself. We all do that from time to time.

Bvideo, "...Info has found one way to do it (works better on some other DAWs). Another way is get a complete dump of your hardware synth after you tweaked everything and save it with the project and let it load automatically on startup..."

The second method you describe is the way to do it, but Info's method isn't a workable way to do it. When I was still using hardware synths, I always had a complex data dump that I would do to start the project. And like most newbies, back then I experimented with doing data dumps during a sequence - wrong - It just doesn't work very well, and is totally unnecessary.

Frankandfree, "...In most cases you'd send them in the first measure(s) before the song actually starts, leaving them enough time to be received and executed..." - Which isn't what Info is talking about. He's trying to send data dumps in the middle of sequences which, I repeat, Is Not necessary.

The data for the complete synth set up is kept in the SysEx view, and is dumped before playing the project. It not only includes the multi-timbral assignment of instruments, but any special patches developed for the song.

So, "...The advantage in using SysEx dumps instead of Bank/Program is that you can come back anytime and need not care about whether you maybe have changed the patches in the meantime. ..." - Yes and No. Those patches can be stored in the SysEx view for that project, but that doesn't mean you have to use SysEx dumps during the sequence to change patches.

"...Why can't you people just acknowledge that Tom tries to use a method..etc. etc..."--because it's a cumbersome, antiquated, unnecessary method. Just trying to help Tom streamline his work flow. But as I said earlier, if he'd rather flip out about how his method doesn't work very well instead of getting on with his music, that's certainly his choice to make.

Randy B.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (frankandfree)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:52:01 GMT

Why can't you people just acknowledge that Tom tries to use a method which was used since MIDI recorders saw the dawn of light? It is a perfectly normal use of single patch dumps and might even be the reason this flavor of small SysEx dump is implemented in hardware devices in the first place.

The main weight here doesn't lie in sending the dumps in the middle of the song (though if you are careful that the receiving device doesn't need to actually play stuff on any channel while the dump and patch change is executing it is perfectly valid procedure to do so). It is just recording small dumps on a track and fire them off during playback. In most cases you'd send them in the first measure(s) before the song actually starts, leaving them enough time to be received and executed.

The benefit is obvious. Instead of handling large dumps of whole banks or the entire patchlist of the device you only deal with reasonably short dumps which are much less prone to fail. The advantage in using SysEx dumps instead of Bank/Program is that you can come back anytime and need not care about whether you maybe have changed the patches in the meantime.

You can now say that it is possible to do so in Sonar via the SysEx window and are right. But the point is that you have to go through a big list of things to set, check and confirm, instead of just doing what a sequencer is built for:

*record the data that you throw at it.*

Heck it's just the same sort of MIDI data as all the rest, just in a larger contiguous chunk instead of the usual three-byte messages. A MIDI recording device should be able to pull it off. If Sonar's restriction would be slightly higher than it currently is there'd be no problem and it would be the far less clumsy method (set up to record MIDI and fire the dump, done) compared to using the SysEx window.
That's all Tom is saying (I believe).

Edit: To be honest, I find it rather impolite to put Tom's mental state or his intentions in question or ridicule the topic via funny pics (which is in my opinion much more fitting to the SysEx window compared to just recording the data). The SOS article Tom linked should be prove enough that not only Tom would benefit of a raised track buffer limit and not only he uses the method he proposes in this thread. Why? Because it is convenient, not because of a "writer's block on Tom's part or something.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (bvideo)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:18:00 GMT

I can see the need to store with the project the exact sounds that the song needs. Anyone with hardware synths has to face this problem. That is unless you never never change preset parameters in your hard synth's memory, i.e. keep the factory patches.

Info has found one way to do it (works better on some other DAWs). Another way is get a complete dump of your hardware synth after you tweaked everything and save it with the project and let it load automatically on startup. Use bank/patch changes in the tracks. In some other safe place save a dump of your original vanilla synth patches so you can always go back to them.

If 1000 patches is too big to keep in a project file, make a plan to set aside just one bank or just a few patch numbers for per-project tweaks and save/restore just those per project.

No matter which DAW, it would take a built-in librarian to make saving tweaks easy, especially if you are tweaking while composing and want to delete an older dump and replace it with the latest tweak.

Bill B

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (John)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:01:44 GMT

Randy, another excellent post sir. I had fun reading it.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (rbowser)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:51:43 GMT

Info, I think you've gotten the response you have on this thread because nobody replying to you, including me, Cares if it would take 20, 30 steps to use Sysex this way in a Sonar, sequence, because it's an incredibly round-about, pointless way to work which we have no desire or need to use.

If I want a glass of water, I could:

1) Turn on the kitchen faucet and pour water into a glass.

Or, I could:

2) Go outside, hook up a hose on the faucet in the back yard, wrap the hose around the house, bring it through the front door, walk through several rooms with the hose and eventually reach the kitchen where I have a glass waiting, put the hose into the glass, go back outside and turn the faucet in for a little while, turn it off, then go back into the house to drink my glass of water.

Using Sysex during a sequence to change a patch makes no more sense than that.

The Sysex view is useful for storing and then spitting out a complicated multi-timbral set up in a hardware synth. But after that initial setting up at the start of a project, if I need more instrument changes, I'll use the straight-forward kitchen faucet approach - I'll simply insert a patch change in the sequence, a step that takes seconds to accomplish.

There have been other times when I've seen people get in big toots because of some clumsy work-around that they're insisting on. They'll stay stuck with what they think is a problem, and they'll say things like you have here, "...this is making me a little furious..." They keep tinkering with their overly complicated Rube Goldberg idea instead of simply using the tools already at hand which do what they want in an efficient way.

I think everyone on this thread has been trying to help you get on with your work, show you how to accomplish what you want. Now it's up to you to decide what's more important - to get on with your music, or stay distracted and angry? If you choose the latter, I would suggest you're using this Sysex idea as an avoidance mechanism - that for whatever reason, you either don't want to work on your music, or you're currently in an uninspired dry spell and so are pouring your energy into this pointless distraction.

Here's a Rube Goldberg device which makes as much sense as clumsily inserting Sysex into a sequence stream:

Randy B.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 19:00:45 GMT

daveny5

It cannot be done from the Sysx window because when you're in play mode, the send button is disabled. You can only send while its not playing or at the very start of a track when you hit play. That's it. Game-Set-Match.

btw: this is also wrong because it can be done (the way i described in the other thread i posted a link above) also within a running track and over and over again in any midtrack in a song (so it cant be that "useless" if its implemeted - BUT its implemeted pretty badly compared to othe apps - THATS MY POINT

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:52:11 GMT

sorry - which part did i not describe as detailed as possible?

it doesnt make sense to you - ok there are many things that make no sense to me (arpegiators, autotune, 192khz recording, alternative guitar tuning, hiphop and many more very acclaimed things...)

how difficult is it to just accept that i have a conceptually deeply thought use for this?
and that all other sequencers support my way of seieing this?

its a bit annoying when one tries to sort out a problem - posts questions , does some research and then posts all available infos, possible conclusions and comparisons to other sequencers functions and then the only comment is something like

"it doesnt make sense to me because method xy also works"

i hope you feel my (little) frustration

actually people COULD have replied just something like "strange that sonar only supports dumps smaller than 255byte in a miditrack" insted of "its useless"

regards

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (Tom F)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:43:28 GMT

bitflipper

This thread is interesting to me simply because in the 25+ years I've been sequencing MIDI it has never once occurred to me to invoke a sysex dump during playback. Not trying to be contrary, but can anyone explain why one might want to do this?

hi bit...actually i have explained this right in the beginnig:

1: the blofeld has very nice presets (1000) and i dont want to save my sounds in its memory
2: i want the sounds i have edited for a specific song to be only recalled in THAT song
3: i have been using this "way of preset management" since logic audio 3.1 and with many external synths - FOR ME this approach is totally NORMAL - thats why i politely asked to eventually NOT question my motivation for wanting sonar to do what i have explained
4: IF my approach was so absurd or out of the world of pravticability i really wonder why most other big sequencer apps have no problem with MY workflow..

pleas dont get my answer as personal attack or rant - but i knew people would start to question the use instead of just accepting that sonar takes 12 steps to do something other apps do in 2 steps!

and this sort of comments like: "use control changes", "i never did this", "why would anyone want to do this" just sound a little like "if sonar is uncool in this specific segment its my fault because i want to do something weird"

i just can only repaet that i have been successfully working with this method for years and i know quite some other folks who use to do it like that ...obviously longtime sonar users seem to be sceptic because they dont know the use of such an approach...

one positive thing is also that its much easier to manage and store sounds without any stress in terms of eventualy memory loss inside the synth or in case that one looses the separate sysex files from an external dump...but i reall let it to your imagination to think about why its usefull...i see nothing "mystic" in it ;.-)

anyway - for me this thing is done - it doesnt work the easy way so thats it - and its a sonar problem

but dont blame me for opening a thred about it (not you bit .. i am talking in general)

regards

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (daveny5)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:07:45 GMT

i want to have those little dumps in my arrangement so that i dont have to use program changes etc..

That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Program changes work great.

It cannot be done from the Sysx window because when you're in play mode, the send button is disabled. You can only send while its not playing or at the very start of a track when you hit play. That's it. Game-Set-Match.

Re:why cant i get a realtime sysex dump into sonar??? (bitflipper)

Thu, 01 Jul 2010 16:51:15 GMT

This thread is interesting to me simply because in the 25+ years I've been sequencing MIDI it has never once occurred to me to invoke a sysex dump during playback. Not trying to be contrary, but can anyone explain why one might want to do this?