How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users?

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (stevec)

Fri, 25 May 2012 18:14:01 GMT

I dunno.... I kinda lke chimes and gongs myself. They both have their purposes.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (chitownrocker)

Fri, 25 May 2012 18:09:44 GMT

Will an old Gong do, FastBIKerBoy? SteveC and CJ Yep,Two good point made, I just had to chime in, oops Gong in... Have a safe and Blessed weekend all. I am moving this weekend. Sounds fun huh?

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (FastBikerBoy)

Fri, 25 May 2012 14:06:47 GMT

*****WARNING***OLD FRED ALERT***WARNING

I was thinking for a moment someone was still banging on the old drum after 18 months.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (stevec)

Fri, 25 May 2012 14:06:09 GMT

The past is the past.

As is this thread, which for all intents ended over a year ago.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (CJaysMusic)

Fri, 25 May 2012 14:04:00 GMT

I want Cakewalk using their resources on future and their most resent version of Sonar. The past is the past.

I dont want them updating a version that isn't their latest version. That means less resources for the latest version and the newer upcoming versions.

CJ

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (chitownrocker)

Fri, 25 May 2012 11:58:24 GMT

Here is one idea, from an old fart... Some one copy and paste these 127 posts, into a word processor. And then take out an ad in a national newspaper. I wonder what the boys at Roland, would think of it. Hum? Any takers. Didn't think so. Old Fart Out

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (mikey)

Fri, 20 May 2011 23:42:37 GMT

Hummm, In mentioning these needed fixes for 8.5 Bit, your not bringing up the past are you?

(snicker)

In all honesty I hope that Cake see's this and fixes the problems in 8.5 you mention, but resources and time spent on an older release just isnt good business practice for them. In other words theres no M O N E Y in it.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (bvideo)

Fri, 20 May 2011 22:31:39 GMT

I wonder who first made the unwise analogy between a skyscraper and "software"? Neither building standards nor software standards of robustness are uniform. They don't need to be.

A $99 software product might be comparable to some home-built doghouse, while a skyscraper should be compared more to the software in a traditional phone company infrastructure for example. And in the case of an airliner or a nuclear power plant, or even a car, the embedded software should be comparable with the physical structure, in terms of standards of robustness. (Right now I am thinking of robustness as a mix of reliability under expected circumstances and graceful degradation in the face of unexpected circumstances.)

It makes no sense to compare a skyscraper with a consumer-affordable software product in terms of robustness. It's more useful to speak first in terms of how much robustness is worth. DAW-crash-fixing is not (yet) up to the value of earthquake-hurricane-proof-skyscraper-building, or even accelerator-non-sticking-car-manufacturing. The scale of consequences often drives both robustness and cost. Complexity in software, on the other hand, is a lot cheaper than robustness, and is a lot more prevalent.

Bill B

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (daveny5)

Fri, 20 May 2011 20:41:58 GMT

It ain't ever gonna happen. 8.5 is a done deal.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (ampfixer)

Fri, 20 May 2011 20:35:53 GMT

Bitflipper, I feel the pain and agree with you 100%. If, in the course of development CW fixes DLL files used in 8.5 and puts them in X1 then they should be posted for 8.5 users.
When I build amps the availability of parts is continually changing. If I find a new part that really improves reliability or function then I install those parts on any amp that's in for service and offer it to other owners. Since I give a lifetime warranty on my stuff it's good sense to make them as reliable as I can.
With new amps it's a nightmare. Many of the leading brands are engineered using a feature/price valuation system. This leads them to less than stellar build quality. A side effect is that every time you try and make a repair you run a substantial risk of breaking something else due to cost effective building practices. These manufacturers don't care. They make all their money on the sale, upfront.
As an individual I'm way more accessible than any corporation. No 20 option phone menus with me, no where to hide.
Corporate think has ruined more than 1 product or company.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (bitflipper)

Fri, 20 May 2011 17:49:59 GMT

At this point, I don't think I want the X1 programmers anywhere near my 8.5.3 install.

Megaphone EQ preset: "Just back away from the UI - nobody needs to get hurt!"

What I'm talking about are fixes that might be implemented and vetted in X1 first. For example, if someone got it into their head to take a look at our old friend cronus.dll, we could let those intrepid X1 ~~guinea pigs~~ - er, pioneers - see if it actually improves anything or not. If it does, then simply make it available to the rest of us via download. There would be no cost to CW, no risk to us conservative luddites, but would provide a boost of goodwill all around.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (stickman393)

Fri, 20 May 2011 14:26:29 GMT

At this point, I don't think I want the X1 programmers anywhere near my 8.5.3 install.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (Deisel401rs)

Fri, 20 May 2011 10:21:42 GMT

I also am perfectly happy with 8.5.3 and and have found no reason to upgrade to X1 yet. Would def love to see the fixes suggested by bitflipper and others.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (Dappa1)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 12:01:10 GMT

Yeah best not to shoot of at the hips

Computer programming can be easy as bitflipper says but the part that is harder is when you try to make that system think. ohhhh lol there is the problem...I used to fault find when programming and that could take me hours. Time really goes by quickyl by the time you find the if and the goto's then when you break it down its not even that line at all that was causing the problem but something obscure.

Every profession will have its complexities, decisions they need to make, inspections carried out every 6 months. repairs needed to be made. The thing is if something is not caught in time it could cost a company billions. So with small companies its best to remedy the problems as soon as they occur which will benefit them in the long run.

I hope this is what CW is now embarking on!

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (bitflipper)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:52:20 GMT

It even has a name: The Dunning-Kruger effect. Even though I know about that effect, I still blather on about things I have no idea about. Like the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Good one!
It's true that everybody thinks what they do for a living is complicated, simply because they understand those complications better than others outside their field.

I don't consider, say, cooking to be a complex subject, but it's actually a science. A serious cook can spend a lifetime studying and learning more about it. It's the largest category in the book business. TV channels are devoted to it. Obviously, it's much deeper than I can appreciate even though I am competent to fix a meal that won't kill you.

But when I talk about the unparalleled complexity of software, it's not the number of details or the depth of knowledge that makes it so. The actual syntax of a programming language is very simple. It has to be, because computers are unbelievably stupid. And, as with other engineering disciplines, the most commonly-used techniques are well-known and time-tested. Anyone can learn to write a computer program in an afternoon!

The complexity comes from the number of ways a program can execute. Consider an ultra-simple program that outputs "hello, world!". It is trivial to write one that is 100% reliable (assuming external components are working right).

Now introduce a simple decision into the code: something like "if it's Friday, say 'TGIF!', otherwise say 'hello, world!". By doing this you have doubled the number of possible execution paths from 1 to 2. (I have simplified this example, because merely determining if its Friday may involve a few dozen if-then-else constructs.)

Every one of these either/or decisions doubles the number of execution paths. Such simple binary decisions are what distinguishes a computer program from a simple list of instructions, and despite their simplicity they are the basis for all computer "intelligence".

As you can imagine, you need a WHOLE lot of them in any sophisticated program, with each one doubling the number of possible ways the program can behave. Even the simplest programs have many thousands of them, and truly sophisticated software will have millions of them. The number of possible execution paths becomes literally astronomical.

And we haven't even factored in the nearly-infinite variability of input data yet, nor taken into account all the external factors such as interactions with third-party libraries and the operating system.

So when I say it's complex, I am coming from a purely mathematical perspective. It doesn't mean that what I do for a living is harder than what you do, or that I should be cut some slack because of it. It doesn't mean I'm smarter than you (there are plenty of idiots writing software, trust me!). It only means that the things I construct will always have a degree of variability that's so huge a human can't really wrap his mind around it.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (mike_mccue)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:51:51 GMT

:-)

I worked for this company for a year as a design draftsman when I was a college kid:

http://www.figgbridge.com/

I grew up working after school by starting here at age 13 in an informal apprenticeship that lasted thru college:

http://www.matherseng.com/default.htm

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (UnderTow)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:40:47 GMT

Dappa1

UnderTow

some people shoot from the hips...its comfrotable for them to do so.

Some people can get away with it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iK2ndUyKE8#t=40s

UnderTow

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (UnderTow)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:38:32 GMT

SilkTone

I believe you need to develop software to really realize how complex it is.

Of course and I speak from experience or I wouldn't even be commenting here. I am also quite sure that the exact same thing can be said about any engineering project which seems to be forgotten by the proponents of software complexity.

And the civil engineering examples that people cite are following very well-thought-out processes with strict checks and balances all along the way. My whole point is that something as complex as a DAW needs very good practices and processes in place if the idea is to keep it in a state where it is stable, maintainable and extensible.

Oh absolutely and I agree with what you have been saying. Well-thought-out processes and strict checks and balances is needed for any complex project be it software or other. It is one of the very first thing you learn when you study computer science and software engineering.

What I take issue with is the over simplification and over generalisation that some present. (Not you SilkTone). And, well, the lack of logic too. My Hello World example was chosen because it irrefutably invalidates the claim that "nothing compares to the complexity of software" in a way that should be absolutely clear to anyone.

Remember my original relevant comment was simply: "Don't you think your comment is a tiny little bit of an over generalisation?" Not only is this comment absolutely true but it let Brett off the hook and allowed him an easy way out of the logical impasse he created for himself. He chose to bulldoze ahead and ignore common sense and logic in favour of his own preconceived ideas. Too bad...

Yes as I said I have no real idea what Sonar's source code looks like, but the symptoms we see today fits the problems I mention perfectly.

Indeed.

UnderTow

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (Dappa1)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:11:54 GMT

UnderTow

some people shoot from the hips...its comfrotable for them to do so. In an age of knowledge, we seem to know nothing...if you dont believe me when your ill and in need of a Doctor ask for his advice!

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (Dappa1)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:07:57 GMT

Kroneborge

Yes, my Bullsh!t meter starts going off many times especially when people start talking about costs and economics and stuff. They will just throw out a number that can't possibly be possible, and then expect you to swollow.

Do you know my girlfriend or something

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (SilkTone)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 11:06:09 GMT

I believe you need to develop software to really realize how complex it is. And the civil engineering examples that people cite are following very well-thought-out processes with strict checks and balances all along the way. My whole point is that something as complex as a DAW needs very good practices and processes in place if the idea is to keep it in a state where it is stable, maintainable and extensible.

Yes as I said I have no real idea what Sonar's source code looks like, but the symptoms we see today fits the problems I mention perfectly.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (pwal)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:49:57 GMT

and the amsterdam north-south line is way over budget & late...

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (trimph1)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:42:10 GMT

tarsier

But people (everywhere, not just on this forum) do have a tendency of going on about things they have clearly no idea bout.

It even has a name: The Dunning-Kruger effect. Even though I know about that effect, I still blather on about things I have no idea about. Like the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I'm an expert at using the Dunning-Kruger effect...

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (Kroneborge)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:21:01 GMT

UnderTow

Dappa1

is that a quib?

No not at all! Well not at you in any case. But people (everywhere, not just on this forum) do have a tendency of going on about things they have clearly no idea bout.

Undertow I like your posts especially of late your opinions are right on the ball!

Thanks.

UnderTow

Yes, my Bullsh!t meter starts going off many times especially when people start talking about costs and economics and stuff. They will just throw out a number that can't possibly be possible, and then expect you to swollow.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (tarsier)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 10:11:37 GMT

But people (everywhere, not just on this forum) do have a tendency of going on about things they have clearly no idea bout.

It even has a name: The Dunning-Kruger effect. Even though I know about that effect, I still blather on about things I have no idea about. Like the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (UnderTow)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:55:25 GMT

Dappa1

is that a quib?

No not at all! Well not at you in any case. But people (everywhere, not just on this forum) do have a tendency of going on about things they have clearly no idea bout.

Undertow I like your posts especially of late your opinions are right on the ball!

Thanks.

UnderTow

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (paulhcp)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:52:37 GMT

After reading all this, It would be interesting to hear someone from CW respond to the OP question. I can understand why not, but, good luck.

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (Dappa1)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:45:31 GMT

is that a quib?

Undertow I like your posts especially of late your opinions are right on the ball!

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (UnderTow)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:37:15 GMT

Dappa1

UnderTow you have an answer for everything...

It is rather easy if you stick to not making claims about things unless you are rather sure you can back them up.

ahh...the power of the internet!

Actually my ex is involved in the project so I have been rather well informed on many of the aspects of that project. (The metro line, not the CERN project ).

UnderTow

Re:How about letting some of these fixes trickle down to us 8.5 users? (trimph1)

Wed, 30 Mar 2011 09:28:48 GMT

mudgel

Coffee house?

This thing is still up here?