Why you need a subwoofer

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:45:45 GMT

Flywheel

I agree headphone mixes can be great.

Just a thought, I think anyone with the equipment they have can make a a) bad mix b) an ok mix c) a good mix and d) a excellent mix.

You do not have to have a sub I mean how did they mix without them and subs have been around for a long time.

Major studio's get by Mastering engineers have always gotten by and from what I hear abbey road studio's got by with what they had for those days.

Maybe times have changed but I still am of the persuasion that you can do much with little and little with much, it just depends on how you utilize it and how well your willing to learn and put into it.

I was listening to Floating by Yori Yackin and was amazed at how much bass was lacking from that recording. I was flummoxed to know that it was Cakes staff that had a large hand in it.

Then I read this, please have a listen at the release and see what you think!

Though I would agree with this, "times have changed" is what the problem is, Flywheel. If you go back in time to say...the 50's...bass wasn't something that was prominent at all in those mixes. Enter the 60's, it starts to show it's head a bit on bass guitars. The 70's...pretty much the same. You have to keep in mind, it was rare to hear a kick drum or bass guitar hit in the 50 Hz to 60 Hz ranges back then. Most of the mixes capped off at 65 Hz where they allowed a little activity.

Enter the 80's and bass was pretty stipped out due to the onslaught of metal guitars needing all the space. The pop stuff had some good bass going on, but even there...you needed to pump up your low end on something the second you put it your player if you wanted it to truly "pump".

Enter the 90's and what we saw was pretty much a flashback of the 70's with better gear yet worse players in my opinion. They took the less is more approach...but here, we started hearing kick drums in the 60 Hz range and bass guitar was no longer taking a back-seat. You could set your watch that it would hit at 70 Hz to 80 Hz at all times with a little bit of drive going on.

By 2000, we started hearing sub low rumbles and kick drums and bass guitars that spanned from 50 hz to 80 hz. If they wanted more of a thumping kick, they reversed the logic. This is where we are today and even more low end is coming into the picture. You can hear bass drops at 35 hz and other sub lows flying all over that are prominent up to 40 Hz. Some of this is due to artistic approach, other times...I sincerely believe they are catering to the world of earbuds. We've also expanded our frequency ranges. Meaning, frequencies that once weren't so much in music are now more involved. We have also created gear that can put out these frequencies so people can really hear them now. Listen to an old set of NS 10's then listen to the same song on Dynaudio, Event or Genelecs. Pretty big difference and proof of how much we've evolved. The question one might ask is "yeah but are these new monitors coloring the sound or allowing us to really hear what's there?" I'd say they are allowing us to hear what's really been mixed.

You mention the Cori Yarckin tune...what version do you have? I heard there may be two of them. If you have the later one (which I haven't heard nor do I have any proof it exists) that may be the reason. I have noticed in a few Cake vids that they turned the song into a dance song. I don't even want to hear that version if it exists. LOL! But if that's the one you have, you need to check out the original.

I got the first one that came out with X1. I thought it sounded so good that I created a thread to ask the Bakers that were involved with it, how they went about it. I thought it was an exceptional mix that sounded very professional in a lot of ways. I thought the low end was spot on in my system. My only pet peeve was I wasn't crazy about the drum sound and that to me would have put it over the top. But everything else....I thought they did a wonderful job and pulled out all the stops. I also felt it was an excellent representation of what someone in the rock/pop world could do using Sonar. There is quite a lot going on in that song. However, on all my systems it uses very little system resources or cpu. So to me they did a really good job all across the board.

Anyway, at the end of the day...it's like I said. If you get good mixes without a sub and they sound great everywhere, you're not a guy that needs one. Guys like me, due to our rooms or the monitors we may have selected, definitely need one so it's the better choice for us. :)

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (pwal)

Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:21:46 GMT

i don't need a subwoofer, i already have one

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Flywheel)

Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:53:14 GMT

The KRK Sub is 318 GBP

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Garry Stubbs)

Tue, 21 Feb 2012 07:15:44 GMT

I have a melange of monitors, lol!!

trimph1

I think you have just come up with a great collective noun for a surfeit of speakers !

Garry Kiosk

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Flywheel)

Tue, 21 Feb 2012 06:48:20 GMT

I agree headphone mixes can be great.

Just a thought, I think anyone with the equipment they have can make a a) bad mix b) an ok mix c) a good mix and d) a excellent mix.

You do not have to have a sub I mean how did they mix without them and subs have been around for a long time.

Major studio's get by Mastering engineers have always gotten by and from what I hear abbey road studio's got by with what they had for those days.

Maybe times have changed but I still am of the persuasion that you can do much with little and little with much, it just depends on how you utilize it and how well your willing to learn and put into it.

I was listening to Floating by Yori Yackin and was amazed at how much bass was lacking from that recording. I was flummoxed to know that it was Cakes staff that had a large hand in it.

Then I read this, please have a listen at the release and see what you think!

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (piangio)

Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:21:14 GMT

I solved almost all of my SUB mixing problems (my home studio room it's a bit critical) using this headphone. Ultrasone PRO900: it's very accurate in the sub frequencies and, even if it's not the most delightful for listening, it's the best I've ever tried able to "monitor" the unwanted sub frequencies. It's not a "solution" but only my little experience.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (trimph1)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:56:19 GMT

" />" />

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Scott Lee)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:01:48 GMT

I think I know why "I need a subwoofer"

The neighbors are fighting in the backyard, time for some loud dance music " />

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (trimph1)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:42:28 GMT

Oh gee thanks for that piece of news, lol!!" />

The monitors that I use are KRK5's and a pair of EPI Monitor 100's...and I am going with the idea of using KRK10's...maybe with both sets ...

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Norrie)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:32:59 GMT

On the Subject of monitors .....

Did any one go to Namm this year and see the Slate digital Siren D3 ?

http://imageshack.us/phot...s/715/slatesiren3.jpg/
http://www.sonicstate.com....it&utm_medium=twitter
I cant wait to check them out and saveing money for the release.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:13:10 GMT

Hi Norrie,

Yeah the 8's I have were a little bass heavy as well, but not in the sub areas where I wanted/needed them to be. I hear ya...it's amazing how easy we can love that low end and over-use it. It took me a little time at first too but only because in my main room, I neverhad the right bass anyway...so when I got the sub, it was like "oooooohhhhhh MAN!!!!" Hahahaha!

My bud actually has a smaller room with that 12. I even think a 10 might be too much for it...but the guy mixes stuff really good, so I can't say a word really. I sure wouldn't be able to mix in that room like that though. The first thing I'd do would be to high pass like crazy only to find my mixes would end up being bass light. He just knows that system so well it's kinda crazy. And he listens to everything super loud. LOL! As long as something works....that's all that matters in my opinion. Glad you're enjoying your sub and it's made a difference for you.

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Norrie)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:02:58 GMT

Hi Danny

I do remember the old KRK 8's thats what helped in my choice to pick KRK.

I am useing the newer KRK 8's its the Rokit 8G2 with the Rokit 10 sub

I had a set of Tapco S5s to start out with then upgraded to the KRK's I didnt have the sub for about 6 months as I find the 8s are quite bass heavy as they are but I decided to go ahead and get the 10 and I am very hapy that I did get it.

I love that I can put a foot switch to the 10s and pop it on and off to check mixes so its not always got to be on .
Have to admit though it did take a bit of messing with to get the level right in the room. When I first got it I was just loveing how much bass was comeing from the 10 kind of like ooooooooh I can really feel that kick drum now haha !

I have seen the Genelec 12 but have not heared it in action I did demo the KRK 12 and man it was just huge it would be over kill I just dont have a big enough room for now ;)
Your bud must have a nice big room for that 12 ? What your saying though I agree with 100% IT might be over kill to you but great for him to work with where as the next guy might prefer no sub at all or to just turn it down a bit
Its all down to personal taste
I am pro sub :P others are not but I can tottaly agree that they do not suit everyone

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:28:52 GMT

Norrie

I have the KRK 8's and the 10 sub and they work great together. If you add the 10 sub to your KRK 5's I am sure you will love it !

Norrie, that's what I'm using at my other studio. We have the old KRK Rokit 8's...remember the big ones? They sound killer! Added the sub 10 recently and it made an incredible difference for the better. I think the 10 could be a little big for certain rooms, but we have a pretty big one at the new place so it's good for us. One of my buds just got a Genelec 12 or something....it's ferocious and pretty much over-kill in my opinion. How the heck he mixes using that thing is beyond me. LOL! Everything I hear over there seems to have too much sub kick to it...yet when you play his stuff, it always sounds spot on. Hey, whatever works, right? :) Are you using the newer KRK 8's?

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:25:31 GMT

Brammer: you're very welcome! Glad the sub thing has helped you out. See, for some guys, it makes an incredible difference. Again, we can discount room/monitor correction as that can help 10-fold. And in certain situations, it CAN make someone that doesn't have a sub, not need one at all. But me personally, I have just always found it to be the better way because then I never second guess that bass at all. :)

Thomas: Hahaha yeah, I definitely need that super energy pill...40's ain't been too kind to me and Sweet Polly is a lunatic. LMAO! Yeah I talked to backwoods as well....good guy.

My sincere apologies backwoods....I just didn't know how to take the post. I know there are a few people that don't think too much of me and sometimes I just question certain things. Thanks so much for your kind words and the plugs for me in both instances I mentioned. Please forgive me for my insecurities. :)

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Norrie)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:39:45 GMT

I have the KRK 8's and the 10 sub and they work great together. If you add the 10 sub to your KRK 5's I am sure you will love it !

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (thomasabarnes)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:37:38 GMT

OK some super heros have brought some balance. :)

My point is that as some can be insensitive with their comments, others can be sympathetic with theirs.

Bud is getting like 10Ten, and mike is starting to remind me of Simon Bar Sinister the way he writes a number of his posts.

Getting all insensitive, in this case, because someone made an effort to share his thoughts on why you need a subwoofer, but didn't write a strickly scientific article to back-up his thoughts.

Hey Danny, it looks like you got to take that "super energy pill." LOL and backwoods is a good guy, and one of my heros. I knew the super heros wouldn't let me down. See, they come and bring balance. John T and FBB are my heros, too. :)

Sorry to put y'all in the spotlight, fellows.

Edited:

For clarity.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (brammer)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:36:59 GMT

My thanks to Danny for a previous post on this topic
Prior to buying a Yorkville sub last week - the comments on my mixes were of the "nice band backing up that bass guitar" variety
Went a long way to solving my issues (the musics ones anyway!)

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (trimph1)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:35:24 GMT

Danny Danzi

trimph1

Well, I did find some of my mixes could use a sub.

But now the question arises...which one?" />

What monitors do you have currently, trimph? If they offer a sub that was made for them, that's where I'd start. As for me, I've had the best results with an Adam Sub 8 that works well with all my monitors. I have the sub hooked up into a switcher so I can just add in whatever monitors I want to use and the sub is in with them. I have a KRK 10 that's pretty cool too.

-Danny

I have a melange of monitors, lol!! " />. I use a pair of KRK5's for most of my stuff actually, so I might upgrade those, somehow...." />

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 12:19:32 GMT

Bub

In all seriousness ... what did Mike do that was wrong? Yeah, his post was a bit of a zinger and probably could have been worded a little different, but for the most part I think he's pretty much dead on. My LOL was the 'holy crap I can't believe you just said that' kind.

And let's be honest here ... there's hardly a person in this thread who has any room to be criticizing others for their behavior ... some admin included.

Hey Bub, I don't think it's what anyone did that was wrong....personally, if you don't mind my take, I felt (not singling anyone out...just the over-all vibe I got from some of the responses) I felt a few people may have taken things a bit out of context to what they were really meant to be. For example, let's say you worked for Cakewalk. I know you're pretty much a hobby guy with recording etc, but to me you're a serious hobby guy that does a really good job on your stuff.

That said, if you were having issues with low end in your mixes and one day bought a sub and it allowed you not to second guess yourself anymore in the low end area and you just felt like sharing that in a blog because Cake said it was ok to, would you be a little upset if people jumped all over you for stating your opinion on what has worked for you? Regardless of how some of the facts pro engineers would figure into the equasion may not be there, would your opinion be any less credible?

See I look at it this way. The super pro guy on here pretty much are etched in stone with how they think, what they do and where their experience level may be. There are also more people that probably aren't super pro on this forum that could really benefit from having a sub if they are struggling to hear bass in their mixes. See man, I was one of those guys. LOL! Bass was something that plagued me for so many years, I wasted too much time.

Yeah, monitor/room tuning was one of my major flaws...but without it, just adding that sub made an incredible difference for me. Can you see my point at all? And, since this is the hottest part of the forum, why not tell the people on here that could benefit from this that may not be pro's that just may be in need of fixing a low end issue? That's how I took the blog. Just a normal man that happens to work for Cakewalk sharing what has worked for him in the event others may have been having that issue.

I don't think any of it was really misleading as I have heard systems in rooms that didn't have any room or monitor tuning that just did well with the addition of a sub. As a matter of fact, I just worked in a room last week that was like that. The guy had a nice set of Dynaudio monitors and he just bought a sub. He had the sub dialed in a bit subby sounding which I picked up on as soon as I listened to my reference material....but finding the sweet spot for that sub took 15 seconds and other than some foam and stuff, this guy really didn't have much in the way of tuning or anything. The mix I did there came out wonderful and I didn't even use ARC or anything else.

So in certain situations, the addtion of a sub can really make a nice difference without all the pro stuff that goes with it. It's just a basic statement of "hey, this worked for me...it may work for you too" is how I took it. I wasn't thinking about Mike T being a pro engineer or anything...or that it should be a spot on, loaded with tech facts blog for pro's because Cakewalk is a professional company or anything. I just took it as "that's what worked for him and he shared it." I'd be willing to bet that's how Mike T felt about it too, ya know? Does this make any sense at all? Honest, I'm not trying to make any waves or upset anyone....I just felt that a few may have been reading into it a bit too deep even though some of their pro assessments would be correct. If it were someone from here that was just a normal dude that didn't work for the company, would that person receive the same comments?

Just curious....you get good results with your mixes....do you use a sub? If not, a guy like you with your set-up doesn't appear to need one. If you DO use one, how would you fair if you mixed without turning it on? I'd fail miserably without mine. LOL!

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (vintagevibe)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 12:01:49 GMT

trimph1

Well, I did find some of my mixes could use a sub.

But now the question arises...which one?" />

I love my Blue Sky Media Desk because they are designed as a complete balanced 2.1 system. The sub is not optional. I like that design philosphy.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:55:31 GMT

backwoods

Speaking of superheroes, there are a couple of candidates on the forums. It has been stated by Cakewalk staffers that Cakewalk's own Jimmy Landry might actually be Batman.

Also, check this out- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxLCq2phm_k . "Happy to Be Alive" by Danny Danzi- virtuoso technique from a guitar super hero.

I'm trying to figure out if there is some sarcasm here or you're truly being nice. :) I'm far from any kind of super hero...but I truly loved Underdog as a kid and was him for Halloween like 4 years in a row. LOL!

At any rate, if you were being kind, thank you very much for that. :) If not, have I done something to upset you some how? Sorry for my negative thoughts...it just sort of seemed strange to me that you'd post one of my links out of the blue like that. You did something like this one other time when you posted a piece of my bio from my site on on here in a thread that came out of nowhere. I can't think of a time where I may have gotten into a confrontation with you....but if I have at some point and it's bothering you or something, please feel free to pm me if you'd like to talk about it. :)

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Bub)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:53:46 GMT

In all seriousness ... what did Mike do that was wrong? Yeah, his post was a bit of a zinger and probably could have been worded a little different, but for the most part I think he's pretty much dead on. My LOL was the 'holy crap I can't believe you just said that' kind.

And let's be honest here ... there's hardly a person in this thread who has any room to be criticizing others for their behavior ... some admin included.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:41:16 GMT

trimph1

Well, I did find some of my mixes could use a sub.

But now the question arises...which one?" />

What monitors do you have currently, trimph? If they offer a sub that was made for them, that's where I'd start. As for me, I've had the best results with an Adam Sub 8 that works well with all my monitors. I have the sub hooked up into a switcher so I can just add in whatever monitors I want to use and the sub is in with them. I have a KRK 10 that's pretty cool too.

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Flywheel)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:21:09 GMT

I don't know what make men like this, have you got an insight John T?

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (John T)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:16:46 GMT

It is literally impossible to respect grown men who act like Mike and Bub. Wretched pair of whiney wannabe bullies, wasting everyone else's time nearly as much as their own. What makes people like this?

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (backwoods)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:05:10 GMT

Speaking of superheroes, there are a couple of candidates on the forums. It has been stated by Cakewalk staffers that Cakewalk's own Jimmy Landry might actually be Batman.

Also, check this out- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxLCq2phm_k . "Happy to Be Alive" by Danny Danzi- virtuoso technique from a guitar super hero.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Bub)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:52:38 GMT

thomasabarnes

You really know how to hurt a guy Mike! L! O! L!
If you believe he hurt someone, it's appalling that you find that funny.

Some real insensitive statements around here, lately.

It's like the villians are striking in the city.

Oh, where are the super heroes!

Oh where oh where has my underdog gone. Oh where oh where can he be...

You misinterpreted my comment ... as usual.

As for Seth and Mike, neither one of them need you or any 'super hero' to step in. They're big boys and can defend themselves.

For the record, I personally believe Mike is correct and I'm looking forward to Seth's response.

Let me give you an analogy that may make Mike's post a little clearer to you. Let's say you have a prescription medical pumping device that you use and you know how it works. But, someone else tried it and said it didn't work at all, but you knew it did because you used it extensively. Wouldn't you try to set the record straight?

That's what this is really all about anyways ain't it?

" />

Right about now, I suspect, is when you'll start pulling fallacies out of the Ethereal Plane to try and prove someone else right or wrong, depending on which side of the universe you're on today.

This should get interesting.

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (trimph1)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:50:58 GMT

Well, I did find some of my mixes could use a sub.

But now the question arises...which one?" />

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (Danny Danzi)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:47:55 GMT

FastBikerBoy

@anyone who takes comments personally.........

I'd take the time to find out who walks the walk here, and who just talks the talk - then weight their opinions and input accordingly - I'm sure you won't feel half as bad then.

I'm also wondering at which point arrogance crosses from just plain rude to breathtaking.....

Bingo Karl!! Well said. Not to mention....anyone having bass issues (or lack thereof) in their mixes to where it's taking them days or weeks to mix something because of low end problems, you're just beating yourself up NOT to have a sub. It will never hurt anyone to have one no matter who you are or what room you're in. Worst case scenario, you mix bass light which means you're using too much sub. Back it down a bit, try the mix again. If your current monitors give you the right amount of bass and your mixes are coming out fine and transfering well everywhere, you don't need one. End of discussion.

I must admit FBB, I'm amazed at some of the stuff I read in this thread. It's done something good for me though. I've always been against the ignore feature....now I welcome it.

Thomas: If only I could find my super energy pill ring and sweet polly would stop molesting me....sheesh, these older women in their prime I tell ya! :-Þ

-Danny

Re:Why you need a subwoofer (FastBikerBoy)

Sun, 19 Feb 2012 03:02:45 GMT

@anyone who takes comments personally.........

I'd take the time to find out who walks the walk here, and who just talks the talk - then weight their opinions and input accordingly - I'm sure you won't feel half as bad then.

I'm also wondering at which point arrogance crosses from just plain rude to breathtaking.....