BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:53:04 GMT

note for note sample seems to be the way to go. i see a dsp pci card dedicated digital sampler in the near future. the artifacts can be dealt with in the down and up sampling methods as well as the DFT methodologies but at a very high cpu usage cost.

anybody interested ds864 made this test.

samplers quality comparison

i was more interested in comparing artifacts with various ranges of uppitching and downpitching at various frequencies. (separate spectral analysis window shot for each shift) data on shifting 1 semitone then 2 then 3 etc.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (sluggo)

Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:50:20 GMT

sluggo do you pitch up or pitch down when you notice the artifacts.

I pitched down. For the most part I'm not too worried about it. I've seen the results from an aliasing test of various samplers, and the DS864 did not fare too well. If I was mixing a track and was looking for a polished final product, I would get concerned about minor audio artifacts. For farting around, I don't really care.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (b rock)

Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:43:51 GMT

As the Sonar thread also mentioned, it's best to utilize a sampler's native format; anything else is a conversion, and as such, subject to or even prone to error.

You bring up a very valid point, Bob. The longevity associated with .wav files has no equal, and is the best way to future-proof all your hard work currently as it stands. I wasn't very clear in my earlier reply, but I was thinking more along the lines of converting from one vendor-specific format into another. I'll assume that all of those formats are .wav-based at the core, and add all the bells 'n' whistles and compression schemes over the top of that base.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (techead)

Sun, 09 Jan 2005 10:59:20 GMT

I have heard junkie soundfonts and excellent soundfonts. I am currently of the opinion that the format is not the problem but rather the techniques used to create the samples contained within the .sf2 format.

As far as working in the sampler's native format, so far I'm not sure I like that idea either. Thus far my experience in dealing with electronic music instruments I find that they have a limited life-span (not in terms of their continued usefulness to a musician, but in terms of the length of time a manufacture produces and supports the instrument). I believe this to be true with both software and hardware instruments.

Given the short life span of sampling instruments, I am more inclined to keep a library in raw wave format with a description of how settings might be applied in a generic sense to a waveform loaded into an instrument. This way my library is using a file format that is not likely do die anytime soon, is broadly supported by nearly all instrument makers, and is easily converted to new or old native formats.

The downside is that my library will require considerable hand assembly effort when I want to bring something into a different native format. But then, the world is already like that now (ie DS864 has a lack of good samples in its native format, same with VSampler).

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (b rock)

Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:39:13 GMT

I'm looking into how the Akai S5000 format performs its magic on .wav files, making for a compact download.

There's an interesting, and somewhat related, parallel thread developing at the Sonar forum. It asks the question of whether the Soundfont format is a "toy" format, or if it's inherently capable of high-quality sampling. [Read the entire thread here.]

In the course of the discussion, it's been stated that .sf2 files are limited to 16 bits (evidently not a problem for the DS864, with a simliar ceiling]. It also postulates that the Akai format is highly compressed, as it was originally developed for hardware with very limited memory capacities. That would make a lot of sense. I didn't notice that the Hollow Sun samples suffered as a result, but I'm sure that I'm subconsciously compensating for that fact by considering the age & condition of the original hardware that's sampled.

One route to take that was brought up was using CDXtract as a conversion device. I've barely skimmed over the home page for that, but it looks like that may hold some promise for solving our own tribulations here. I suppose that I could also contact Rubber Chicken to see if there's any hope for a DS864 conversion process in the near future. but I admire the process (so far) that I've glanced at with CDXtract. I'd like to minimize any conversion errors to the sounds themselves, due to filter differences, etc. I know that we'll lose any synth module settings in converting formats. As the Sonar thread also mentioned, it's best to utilize a sampler's native format; anything else is a conversion, and as such, subject to or even prone to error.

Edit: I corrected for the mislabeled product name. CDXtract isn't cheap for what it is (a utility with a narrow user base), but it does have some great tools for batch processing and velocity stacking that might help justify the price (for me, anyway).

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Digital Aura)

Fri, 07 Jan 2005 19:05:57 GMT

im sure its illegal. I just read the terms of use in the KORG site and they prohibit me from making my DS864 banks available (from the Trinity banks I made).
Its okay for me to sample them...I just cant make them available.

I sent them an email to ask if I could have special permission to post only a couple up here, but havent heard back yet." />

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (three_eyed_otter)

Fri, 07 Jan 2005 01:54:07 GMT

in the U.S. citizens pay roughly 50% of their income to the United States of America Government while U.S. corporations pay a paltry 7%.

have a good one
3Eo

does anybody know if it is legal to sample a rompler say like Atmosphere or DKFh 2?

oh i mean using the DS864" />

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:50:42 GMT

ORIGINAL: three_eyed_otter

it seems that it should be legal i mean korg samples drums made by manufacturers so what's the difference?

have a good one
3Eo

don't know if this helps if an acoustic instrument or an electronic one emits a sound the sound itself may not be covered under the patent of the device. the patent typically covers the method or design or circuitry of the device. expect to see this change. if the sound was extremely unique the manufacture could i guess have applied for ownership but with most older devices this was not done simply because to reproduce the sound you had to repoduce the circuitry thereby violating the patent. but mostly because nobody knew sampling would ever exist much less be such a large commercial market.

if you have the owners permission you have the right to sample.

if all of this sounds like nonsense and you live in the eu or the usa you should look to find out why corporations have more rights than homo sapiens do and fight the power. become informed vote out of office those in power who would give a nonliving entity more rights than a living one. i'm not bs ing corporations in the us and eu have more rights under those countries laws than humans do. don't think a corporation has more rights under the law to the pursuit of life liberty and happiness than a human does look again they do.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:35:14 GMT

i not a lawyer but would be willing to bet if you sampled a synth that uses samples that are copyrighted you would be in violation because essentially you would be just transfering from one medium to another. copyright laws vary from country to country. in the eu 50 years after a work is recorded it may be sampled in the usa it is 70 years after the death of the author. so copyright laws vary and you are required to be within the legalities of the country or countries you are selling your art in. the eu will be able to sample legally early elvis shortly but the usa has at least another 45 years or so to go before it can. you must hire legal representation either way to secure your rights. copyright law is very complicated and there are no clear cut rules. you must always hire a lawyer or pay the consequences.

edit.. i should clarify; the above 1st sentence refers to compiling samples to sell you are certainly free to move from one medium to another in order to make music. you can usually look at your license agreement to see what rights you are entitled to. most license agreements today forbid repackaging of the samples to sell.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (three_eyed_otter)

Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:16:27 GMT

it seems that it should be legal i mean korg samples drums made by manufacturers so what's the difference?

have a good one
3Eo

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Huves)

Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:53:26 GMT

ORIGINAL: three_eyed_otter

anybody know if it's illegal to sample an instrument that uses samples? like the digital synth of today

I remember I read an article in the german keyboards magazine. It says that you can sample these instruments because they are not copyright-protected. If you sample from korg, don't use Korg in the sound name. I'm not sure ybout this, the answer is surely complex.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (techead)

Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:34:33 GMT

I'm curious about this as well. Seems to me that it would probably be a violation to digitally copy the original samples from the instrument to another machine, but what about sampling the resulting audio output?

Or, what if I have designed my own patch out of the stock waveforms in a digital instrument like my Korg X2? Since I have scuplted the final sound even though it is based on the stock samples is it okay to sample it? The resulting sound may be completely unlike the original sound and it may bear no resemblence on an analyzer or in an editor to the original waveform.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (three_eyed_otter)

Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:42:02 GMT

anybody know if it's illegal to sample an instrument that uses samples? like the digital synth of today

have a good one
3Eo

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (b rock)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:45:30 GMT

I do understand your point, Greg. Different strokes ...

I think that both levels of usage could be implemented by a third-party solution, or by adding another layer of interactivity to the interface. I was trying to avoid a comparison to VSampler, but they have the Small view with all the lower-level and commonly used functions supplemented by a Rack View of incredible depth. Too bad that it has such a cryptic methodology, for all its depth and functionality.

What got me started on all this was the search for an easy way to explain the functions of the DS864, perhaps in tutorial form. I found that extremely difficult to accomplish when I couldn't even wrap my head around everything for myself. And I'd be doing a disservice to everyone if I were to rush out some incomplete and unclear information.

At the same time, I was putting together some banks and programs to share with all, and which might illustrate some of the tips & techniques in the DS864 that I had discovered for myself along the path. I ran into a brick wall in this regard as well. So I guess that my frustration has morphed into a renewed determination to push this sampler into being the "best that it can be". And you know how stubborn that I can get when I become obsessed with an unsolved problem ...<g>

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:37:27 GMT

Digital Aura you must admit banks and patches for the ds864 have not been forth coming. this i believe has led to a desire on a large number of p5 users to want to build there own. ds864 size alone is one big pain in the arse. arse is that a canadian or uk word i have no idea where it came from. never before out of my mouth or typed from my fingers. i don't believe making it better will make it more difficult to use.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:27:39 GMT

but I understand the reason that they haven't: they can't see the thread. Can you imagine how long it would take for your vision to recover if you coded this sampler?

ROTFLMAO

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Digital Aura)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 19:17:07 GMT

I just have to disagree on that point I guess, B-rock.
I dont want anything MORE hi-tech and complex than what I currently have with DS864...mind you, I understand the bugs and the size issues with it.
But I think in keeping with the scope of the program it was perfectly krafted for guys like me.

Understandibly, you "tweakerz" need more bells and whistles....so, thank GOD for the marketing department!" />

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (three_eyed_otter)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:30:44 GMT

but I understand the reason that they haven't: they can't see the thread. Can you imagine how long it would take for your vision to recover if you coded this sampler?

LOL[sm=lol.gif]

have a good one
3Eo

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (b rock)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:15:16 GMT

after all, DS864 actually IS a sample editor

DA, I don't think anyone wants it to include full-fledged sample editing a la Sound Forge, etc., but neither do we want a kiddie editor coded by Mattel. I think that we're looking for an intermediate solution that allows the user to go beyond the bare basics, and some easier (and visible) methods of constructing a complex sample set.

Even a toggled [full-size of the GUI] window would be a vast improvement, but I'd like to a better way of sample import, a method of locking samples and velocity layers out of the editing process [beyond being unselected; too flaky], root note, loop point, and adjustable span choices that can be selected and saved as part of the import dialogue, etc. That's just the basics, and off the top of my head; the real wish list is a bit larger.

There's quite a bit of bugginess that needs to be addressed, as well, including a huge bug when opening the DS864 in Sonar, using the Insert Synth method and automation. As another example, try to select the Free switch in an EG on the first go-'round; can't be done!

Personally, I don't find the interface easy to work with at all for what I'd like to accomplish, and that is some complex sample sets that highlight the excellent synth section processing the samples. I was hoping that Cake might have a comment on the topic, considering the depth of discussion here, but I understand the reason that they haven't: they can't see the thread. Can you imagine how long it would take for your vision to recover if you coded this sampler?

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Huves)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:58:08 GMT

ORIGINAL: Digital Aura

I really don't understand why you want a sampler editor for DS864...after all, DS864 actually IS a sample editor...and its easy to use too! The only pitfalls to DS864 were those mentioned by SLUGGO above.... dinky GUI and aliasing artifacting...

I work with 1600x1200 screen resolution, so putting up more than one sample is hard to do...

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:35:16 GMT

with an pc overhead projector it's not tiny at all. geez i feel kinda bad about complaining now. live and learn. <g>

sluggo do you pitch up or pitch down when you notice the artifacts. theoretically you should see less going down assuming the ds864 is not transposing via DFT function and is utilizing down and up sampling to transpose. also at what interval of transposition do you notice artifacts. they are readily noticeable say if you just import one wav and stretch it to include several octaves (i luv doing this by the way makes some cool sounds) but generally as b rock pointed out you do not want to do this if you are trying to create an authentic sounding sampled instrument. i plan to run spectral analysis specific to the ds864 as soon as i can.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Digital Aura)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:24:58 GMT

ORIGINAL: Djdynamix

People are mentioning different sampler editors (AKAI) is there a free one out there? That i can build my samples on and then re-open in DS864?

I really don't understand why you want a sampler editor for DS864...after all, DS864 actually IS a sample editor...and its easy to use too! The only pitfalls to DS864 were those mentioned by SLUGGO above.... dinky GUI and aliasing artifacting...

But I've had a great time using it... hey... it takes wavs!! and anyone can make a wav!" />

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (stephen)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:16:20 GMT

Ignore that last post, Vienna needs there to be soundfont compatible soundcard attached to the system or else it won't work, thats a shame.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (stephen)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 15:42:47 GMT

People are mentioning different sampler editors (AKAI) is there a free one out there? That i can build my samples on and then re-open in DS864?

Well after following this thread and getting very frustrated trying to make some soundbanks I've just Googled and found this

Vienna SoundFont Studio 2.3

So I'm going to go and install it now and try and create some soundfonts for DS864. Back soon I hope.

Tutorial here aswell

Creating A Sample SoundFont-Compatible Bank With Vienna

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (sluggo)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 12:51:14 GMT

ORIGINAL: PaintedBlue

Here's another question to consider: what are the best practices for managing input levels when recording an instrument at different velocities? In particular, I am wondering how to deal with recording quieter samples for softer-played notes.

For example, I can try to adjust my input level for different velocities to keep all recorded samples at roughly the same level, and I would then adjust the gain for each velocity layer within DS864.

Or, I can record my samples at their natural levels, but I think that the quieter samples would hold less audio data (i.e. and be of lesser quality than if they were recorded at a higher input level?). From there, I could then choose to normalize my samples and manage the gain within the sampler, or I could load the samples into DS864 as recorded.

Any ideas on this?

If you check out the ds864 bank I put on project5.com, you'll see that I used 3 velocity layers. The lower velocites were not normalized. I believe the effect of this is that the final output from ds864 will have the quieter notes even quieter than what was sampled. However, I did this on purpose for that particular bank/program. Other programs I've created I've normalized all the samples (all velocities) and depend on ds864 for creating the final volume level.

Some other thoughts on DS864...

I submitted a few feature requests on the support web form for DS864. I truly hope Cakewalk considers them. I'll share the ideas with you now. Basically, the idea is that because of the cheap selling price of Project5, Cakewalk could sell many copies of P5 simply by touting a great sampler. For example, I know several people who bought Reason (which is much more expensive) just because they like it's sampler so much. P5 has a great start with DS864. The interface concept works well and is dead easy to use. The filter sounds very good imo, and the synth section is quite good. The downfalls are few, but reasonably significant. Firstly, the gui is too small especially for program editing. Secondly, some looping and sample trimming is needed (ie more sample editing). Thirdly, ds864 aliases badly. Perhaps some oversampling and other tricks, along with a quality setting, could be incorporated. At that point you have an easy to use, great sounding sampler that could become a major selling point of P5.

On other matters, I've requested that the Extreme Sample Convertor supports DS864 formats (I've contacted both Cakewalk and the developer of ESC).

sluggo

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Huves)

Wed, 05 Jan 2005 11:00:48 GMT

ORIGINAL: Djdynamix

People are mentioning different sampler editors (AKAI) is there a free one out there? That i can build my samples on and then re-open in DS864?

This would be wonderful. I hope anyone can give us some tips...

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Djdynamix)

Tue, 04 Jan 2005 21:00:20 GMT

I did a really bad thing the other night...

I spent ages putting in different samples into a patch I already created with different sounds of cars rain thunder etc etc etc took me a whole night to get it right, then put in the notes so all together it made a nice listening story inrto for a Hip Hop style track and I didnt save the Flippin patch did I!
and I was deserted with its past state...

OOOOO it rattled my nervs. I felt so sick!

" />

People are mentioning different sampler editors (AKAI) is there a free one out there? That i can build my samples on and then re-open in DS864?

Cheers

C ya

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Huves)

Tue, 04 Jan 2005 16:21:05 GMT

ORIGINAL: rabeach

i really like the ds864 even with it's short comings. i only have one question directed at cakewalk
why does it have to be so frigging small
cake what brand of binoculars, telescope, or electron microscope do you recommend to use in conjunction with this synth.
:-)

Hehe...It is really small. I work with a 21" monitor at 1600x1200, this makes me blind!
I'm thinking about using an external editor like "Vienna 2.3" or something similar for akp - files to put my samples together.

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (rabeach)

Mon, 03 Jan 2005 23:31:10 GMT

b rock through further spectral analysis i have found that pitch shift that preserves duration has more artifacts in the up pitch shift but pitch shift without preserving duration and just downsampling or upsampling there are noticeably less artifacts either way up or down. i could see no difference but i did not look that close will later tomorrow

edit... oops forgot to say you were right. :-)

RE: BEST WAY TO RECORD SAMPLES FOR DS864 (Digital Aura)

Mon, 03 Jan 2005 23:00:04 GMT

again...yer a step ahead of me.
I just jumped on again to ask...how do I normalize for softer sounds vs. the louder ones? I made the supposed mistake of running my wav's through the LIMITER first and I thought I was screwed...

But now you say you can change the gain in DS864 so this may be the remedy for me.... " />