SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Muziekschuur at home)

Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:20:39 GMT

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RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Muziekschuur)

Sat, 13 Aug 2005 22:07:14 GMT

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RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (aj)

Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:58:05 GMT

Having developed a control surface plugin for the BCR2000, I can say that Cakewalk have been very helpful to me. But what they need to do, IMHO, is make it much easier for control surfaces to be added to Sonar. The generic control surface interface is half duplex, which is dumb. Currently there's no middle ground; either you fire up your C++ compiler or live with the limitations.

The Universal Control Surface project was born out of frustration with this situation, and I understand some people have had success with this - but, really, Cake, can't your talented developers build an extendable, configurable framework where a control surface can be added painlessly. For instance, I can 'learn' any surface control right now. Why isn't Sonar smart enough to figure out how to synchronise the surface, having learned what MIDI command it sends. In most cases, it is simply a matter of echoing the exact same MIDI command back to the surface.

The alternative is to have the control surface vendor write a plugin. But, this is, I have to say, quite demanding. You have to understand a lot about Sonar internals and the documentation is fairly terse, and in some cases incomplete, so you have to read header files and do some head scratching to figure it all out. For instance, how the per-track EQ works took a bit of experimentation to sort out all the params and how they actually work. Getting the transport working - especially move to end, required a bit of lateral thinking too.

Unfortunately the interface between the control SDK and Cakewalk isn't very 'object-oriented' and largely consists of a small set of APIs with rather too many parameters. This, IMHO, could seriously do with a cleanup. Also, Sonar doesn't notify you about project file changes - a weakness that needs fixing, because it's tricky to know when bus layouts etc suddenly go changing on you. You therefore do a lot of unnecessary polling to find out what's changed - Sonar should handle this much more elegantly, otherwise the CS code consumes too much CPU resource and then you have to 'interleave' your updates and do only pieces of the surface on each refresh. This then causes lag.

I agree entirely that control surfaces are the way of the future, and since Roland own Cake, you'd certainly expect tight integration with their own products. In fact, bundled packages make a lot of sense.

Of course, we should be thankful. I understand Cubase users don't have access to any surface development SDK, so you're on your own.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Chrisma)

Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:34:14 GMT

I saw a post a while back where someone used the learn mode to activate the Joy Stick to control Q on the sonitus EQ. Maybe you could use the learn mode to assign other controls to the remaining knobs. I don't know much about the learn mode in Sonar but its worth a look. As far as the template I was speaking of you can create your own startup profile SONAR by opening a blank project setting the tracks, busses, project setting etc. the way you want them and saving it as a file called normal.cwt in the folder where the SONAR program file is. This will force SONAR open with the default settings you've created.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (GaryMedia)

Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:14:24 GMT

Thanks for jumping in on this. I looked thru the help file provided with the SI-24 exe file, and every instance of the term "template" in the Sonar 4 book...nothing looks like it gives me a function that you're implying.

The basic track mute/arm/disarm/volume-envelope functions work just fine..but these were never a problem for me using the kbd/mouse.

Let me re-state my objectives so all the brains will at least be pointed in the same direction. I bought a control surface because I have just installed a UAD-1. Although the plug-ins sound great, they are a pain to use with a mouse. Almost all of the controls are rotary, and some individual plug-ins have (CS-1 and Nigel in particular) 35-or-more knobs on them.

I was hoping to get a more direct/convenient way of running these plug-ins, and I thought the SI-24 (being customized for Sonar use) would provide the vehicle to that end. So far, I've verified that some things do work mostly (Sonitus) but still there are inconsistencies between the sequence of the controls in the GUI and the sequence of knobs on the SI-24.

There are some surprises...the free mda VST plug-ins were very consistent although their GUI is rather plain to say the least. Another surprise was Izotope Ozone which seemed to only map a few minor controls to MIDI control surface usage. Voxengo AnalogFlux had all the controls enabled, but the sequence match between the GUI and the control surface wasn't right all the time. The OB-Tune pitch corrector was completely dead to control surface input, and WaveArts TrackPlug only enabled three-out-of-fourteen knobs (and those had gaps and mis-sequenced mapping) enabled.

I'm beginning to think that it's a lost cause. Can somebody can point me to the process for getting this working as I'd like?

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Chrisma)

Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:54:46 GMT

ORIGINAL: GaryMedia

Based on the activity in the threads regarding the SI-24, I decided to get one instead of the Behringer BCF2000. I'm using both Sonar 3Pproducer and Sonar 4Studio, and based on one evening of fiddling around with this thing, I don't think I have any momentum toward being a happy user. I'm using MIDI control with no RPC-1 card.

I don't see any facility for mapping the SI-24 to control plug-ins. Page 26 of the manual has a list of steps for setting/registering user settings. This seems to be the way to make this work, but I can't see a way to "Input the MIDI event that you want to send when keys or faders are operated.."

If I can get past this hitch, I think I'll be OK. The posts regarding the BCF2000 implied that there was some convenient application to do the mapping, and I had hoped the something equally convenient would be here for the SI-24.

It's really disappointing to see the master fader mapped wrongly in Sonar 4 when it's right in Sonar 3. I'd like to add my impetus to Arman at Roland after I get over the plug-in hurdle.

All help is appreciated!

Help!

Well as far as the master fader not being mapped correctly a workaround for me was just to create a template that had the right and left channels lock together. Other than that I user the SI-24 for mixing and Sonitus Plugins. Works as described. I have no complaints at this point. I just bought the KeyStation 88 - Pro to control softsynths and other plugins.
Haven't really tried other plugins or softsynths with the SI-24. I will though and report back.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (GaryMedia)

Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:16:58 GMT

Based on the activity in the threads regarding the SI-24, I decided to get one instead of the Behringer BCF2000. I'm using both Sonar 3Pproducer and Sonar 4Studio, and based on one evening of fiddling around with this thing, I don't think I have any momentum toward being a happy user. I'm using MIDI control with no RPC-1 card.

I don't see any facility for mapping the SI-24 to control plug-ins. Page 26 of the manual has a list of steps for setting/registering user settings. This seems to be the way to make this work, but I can't see a way to "Input the MIDI event that you want to send when keys or faders are operated.."

If I can get past this hitch, I think I'll be OK. The posts regarding the BCF2000 implied that there was some convenient application to do the mapping, and I had hoped the something equally convenient would be here for the SI-24.

It's really disappointing to see the master fader mapped wrongly in Sonar 4 when it's right in Sonar 3. I'd like to add my impetus to Arman at Roland after I get over the plug-in hurdle.

All help is appreciated!

Help!

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Rick)

Sat, 22 Jan 2005 07:53:00 GMT

Hey Arman,
Roland must be getting really tired of us Si24 owners! I emailed them with your request, and spoke lenghtly in regards to the Sonar/Si24 combination! I also have spent over a year with constant calling Roland with regards to the Si24 and R-Bus card. I have had major problems since I purchased the Studio Package Pro w/Sonar! Which never even happened! I have finally gotten through to them that they needed to correct their false advertisment about selling with Sonar! I have now 2 r-bus cards and will be getting a second Si24!
We must stay after them constantly but they will come through in the end! Bob Wood, the Customer Service Manager, is FANTASTIC! My suggestion would be we all should address the issues with him! He is a very postive person, and my expierence with working with him is excellent! The tech's are good, but the management gets things done! They don't want a poor reputation!
Stay at it Arman and any help you need I will be glad to help! Lord knows with 2 r-bus cards and 2 Si24's running Sonar 3P, I will be on the phone quite often with Roland working out the bugs!
Sincerely,
Rick

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (wwwill)

Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:38:40 GMT

Well if anyone with a 64-bit CPU and Windows XP Pro 64-bit beta wants to see if the Delta RBUS card 64-bit beta drivers (http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.driverdownload&ID=462) listed on the M-Audio Beta Drivers Page (http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.betadrivers) will work.

I have downloaded all the files mentioned above along with Sonar x64, but I don't have a 64-bit CPU. Someone check this out please.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Arman)

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:06:12 GMT

Maudio does have beta 64 bit drivers for many of their cards.

They WILL NOT be releasing any 64 bit drivers for the RPC-1.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (wwwill)

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:43:31 GMT

ORIGINAL: Arman

well - I just got word from M-Audio.

The RPC-1 has been terminated. There will be no future driver releases.

No 64Bit support.

Done Deal.

It looks like there are 3 companies with drivers for Sonar x64:
Edirol, Creative and M-Audio.
http://www.cakewalk.com/x64/faq.asp

I hope M-Audio develops proper 64-bit drivers... or whatever the future holds for Windows/Sonar.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Morten Saether [Cakewalk])

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:02:17 GMT

Hi Arman and all,

Thanks for the feedback concerning the various control surfaces.

The SI-24 control surface module was developed and released by Roland--not Cakewalk--before SONAR supported surround mixing. We will discuss this issue with Roland and see if joystick support can be added in the future.

As far as other surfaces go (US-428, etc.), we plan to eventually update them to support the new bussing architecture and per-channel EQ. We appreciate your patience and continued support.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Arman)

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:18:30 GMT

well - I just got word from M-Audio.

The RPC-1 has been terminated. There will be no future driver releases.

No 64Bit support.

Done Deal.

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Arman)

Sun, 16 Jan 2005 03:30:00 GMT

wwwill,

Thanks for trying. I hope they listen up!

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (wwwill)

Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:26:49 GMT

Here's my new letter. I basiclly added the SI-24 forum post URLs at the end let elet them know about all of our various conversations.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Cakewalk Control Surface Team,
I have been a Cakewalk software user for 10 years now. I think your flagship product Sonar has come a long way in the battle for audio production software. Its MIDI production is great. The audio recording features are superb. All in all it is a great production tool. Let me congratulate everyone at Twelve Tone for phenomenal accomplishments.

My concern is about MIXING.
While a keyboard and a mouse are very useful for some tasks, control surface allow people accustomed to traditional hardware consoles to retain productivity. There is nothing like turning a knob or pushing a fader. This brings me to the point of this letter (finally). The control surface plugins should be updated for every release of software that comes out. I know this seams like a monumental task but I think it would add equity to you product and bring Sonar closer to the all around audio powerhouse that it is not far away from currently. I have purchased the upgrade to version 4 Producer. This marks one of the most significant upgrades since the addition of audio recording.

While I think all the surface plugins should be revised; I am interested in two specific plugins:

Tascam US-428: I would like to see the US-428 plugin be updated so that the EQ controls actually control the per-channel EQ of Sonar 3/4 and not just the FxEQ plugin. I own a US-428 and quite frankly had I of known the EQ wasn't updated for Sonar 3's per channel EQ I would have been more hesitant to upgrade Sonar 2.2. Don't get me wrong, there are features in Sonar 3 that I find very useful (enhanced busses, VST, vSampler, etc). But the value of the upgrade was not a justified productivity necessity. In fact if I want to control EQ with the 428, I must disable the per-channel EQ and manually insert FxEQ plugins. This is DECREASED productivity in my opinion, unless there is a way to retain the "EQ on every channel" option found in Sonar 2.

Roland SI-24: This is the most likely candidate for my next control surface. For a incredible price I would have 12 channels at a time with motorized faders, a pan knob, EQ/send functions, plugin functions, channel select and a mute/solo/arm/automate function button. If I'm not mistaken the SI-24 also includes locate memories, transport controls, jog wheel, audio interface and joystick panner. I'm very excited about getting this sub-$1000 marvel. It would increase the value of my system with a few adjustments. This control surface combined with Sonar 4 would be outstanding with a few adjustments:

- Utilize the joystick panner for surround panning.
You have introduced surround mixing with S4 so why not promote and encourage surround mixing. This is one of a few surfaces I can think of with a joystick panner (Tascam US-2400). Certainly the SI-24 is the only one under $1,000. Of course I don't know what you have planned for the future of your control surfaces. I would love to know what surround panning surfaces you plan to implement.

- Change the "EQ/Send" and "Plugin" function buttons.
As i see the "EQ/Send" and "Plugin" buttons engage the 12 knobs normally assigned to panning. It would seem more functional if you:
1. Changed the send knobs to EQ "Q" adjustment.
Currently the "EQ/Send" function assign knobs 1-8 to EQ gain and frequency for 4 bands and knobs 9-12 for send levels for Auxs 1 to 4. This setup leaves no controller for "Q" adjustment, forcing the use of a mouse to make such an adjustment. Reassigning knobs 9-12 for "Q" adjustment of EQ bands 1 to 4 would remedy this. This would leave no remove control of send levels for Aux 1 to 4. The next suggestion remedies that.

2. Use the "Plugin" functions for plugin and aux send functions.
It appears that there are 12 knobs assigned to the "Plugin" button if I'm not mistaken. Of course within Sonar there are only 4 controllable, assignable parameters per selected plugin per selected channel at one time. This would only require 4 knobs, which can be assign the already-labeled aux 1-4 knobs of 9-12. I f you were to assign knobs 1-8, currently label for EQ functions, to control send level and panning of Aux 1 to 4 that would increase functionality. In addition if the four buttons assigned to EQ on/off under the "EQ/Send" functions button work under the "Plugin" functions button, those could either be used for send on/off or send pre/post. Possibly configurable in the plugin similar to how commands can be assigned to the US-428's "F1/F2/F3" keys.

Whew!

I know this is a lot to digest. Reading lengthy messages from the thousands of people like me out there leave you little time for actually development. That's why I believe in getting involved. I have background in programming and a programmer's mind (ASP/PHP/HTML/Javascript/Perl/SQL). While I have no experience with COM I feel that when it comes to programming languages and syntax are easier that logic and concept. I have download control surface SDK. If it is at all possible I would love to get the files the development team has been working with. If maybe just some minor tweaking is needed that would be easy for someone like me. What else beside the SDK is needed: Visual C++, Delphi, Visual Basic? Maybe you guys could open a [DEVELOPER] forum dedicated to control surfaces and a devxchange area for file sharing.

You may be intersted in the many SI-24 User posts in the Sonar Forum:
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=304101
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=295805
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=271795
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=313337
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=295805
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=303700
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=319691
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=329324
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m=343056

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (wwwill)

Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:43:04 GMT

Let's make it happen!

I will resend the letter I outlined in this thread:http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=271795.

Ignore the cable question and let me know what you SI-24 users think of my ideas.

Somehow we should tell them about the petition thread as well:http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/fb.asp?m=304101

What else can we do? Maybe I'll make it a point to be apolite nusence(sp) by emailing them every week/day/month!

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Arman)

Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:12:25 GMT

Anyone else game?

RE: SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (LIMITAPROACHINGINFINITY)

Sat, 15 Jan 2005 03:43:35 GMT

ORIGINAL: Arman

Maybe all the SI-24 users need to send Cakewalk a message to get them on this...

Good call, I will do this tomorrow when i get the chance.

SI-24 support in S4 - The Response from CakeWalk (Arman)

Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:33:35 GMT

I emailed Cake about updating the Roland SI-24 controller plugin for S4 to include the joystick for surround panning. Their response was as follows:

"I will forward your suggestion to the project manager."

Maybe all the SI-24 users need to send Cakewalk a message to get them on this...

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/email/

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