Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (munmun)

Fri, 27 Jan 2006 06:20:27 GMT

One thing that I have not seen discussed anywhere is this... is it possible to salvage the samples in either BFD or DFHS one day when the native software environment is obsolete. I don't like the idea of paying this much money for an instrument that will only last 3 years.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (MKS)

Mon, 13 Jun 2005 18:38:14 GMT

You need to contact support directly. IMHO, I would assume you are trying to make use of a warez copy. Support is very speedy with their replies.

Perhaps your email is being blocked. Try to contact them with another email account such as yahoo or gmail.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (SurfingMusicMan)

Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:18:07 GMT

I haven't had any trouble downloading updates from the DFH site. Regardless, before the updates I still didn't have trouble with ghost hits and lost sounds. If you are a new DFHS user, be aware that sometimes you have to play the song through once or twice cuz the sampler has to load the hits, and it doesn't do it until it comes to one in a song. Ie, it won't have the snare hit at velocity 90 loaded until it comes across one in the song, even if it already came across a snare hit at 95 (sometimes). I have to do this even with the latest updates.

Yes, its tedious, but worth the incredible sounds (imo).

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (pattfink)

Mon, 13 Jun 2005 16:17:19 GMT

Perhaps someone can help me out here. I am having lots of problems with DFH2. The biggest problem is that I am unnable to download the update to the latest version of the bundled sampler (version 1.0.3). So far, tech support has been no help with this. Without the update the DFD extension is nothing but trouble, tons of ghost hits and lost sound. I am at my wits end here and feel like I spent a bunch of money (over $100.00) for more trouble than benefit. If anyone here happens to have the update patch available for download or could email it to me, I would certainly appreciate it.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (napsack)

Mon, 06 Jun 2005 08:20:06 GMT

Page 336 in my Sonar 4 manual---> "Creating and Editing a Drum Map".

You may also want to check out EDrum Midi Mapper: http://www.chaoticbox.com/edrum_midi_mapper.php.

You would also need a virtual MIDI driver to use with it, I use Maple http://www.marblesound.com/Maple_driver.html.

This program runs separately from SONAR and maps incomming MIDI messages to whatever you want on the outbound virtual MIDI port. For whatever reason I prefer this method to Drum Maps, perhaps because it also has additional features such as mapping velocities to different notes, alternating hits (incase your sample doesn't provide this), supposed fixes for hihat issues with DFH2 (I haven't gotten this really working yet, but haven't spent much time on it), and an interesting velocity-fixing feature whereas you can calibrate your softest and hardest hits on your EDrums, and the mapper will map those velocities to the full 1..127 range. For instance my EDrums are set to where my softest hit registers like 100 for the velocity. I therefore miss out on all of the soft samples mapped to velocities 1..99. Kind of neat feature, haven't seen this program mentioned on the forums before.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (7string)

Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:17:25 GMT

I just got both BFD & DFHS today. " />

They both seem great. I can't wait to figure them out.

BFD took like 15 min. to install 2 DVD's
DFHS took 2 hours +/- for 5 double sided DVD's
Tons of updates available for both programs.

DFHS has a new demo video has the best tone I've heard from either
so far. But, you can't lose with either program.

Pat

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (Middleman)

Mon, 06 Jun 2005 00:13:06 GMT

bmxplosive, thanks. Yes, I saw that post and went back to make up a template for Rewire as follows:

Inserted the DXI and the 25 tracks showed up. Then I turned off all the ambiance and tested each part of the drumset. As you pointed out only 13 of the 25 are actually used. Then I deleted the extra tracks, typed the name of each drum kit mic in the remaining tracks to give them real names versus port names. I really like the Rewire vs VST resizing issue. The only thing I don't like is having to jump back and forth from the Rewire DFHS because it runs as a separate program in Windows vs the VST staying in the Sonar main window. That gets to be a bit of a pain.

Otherwise, it works great.

Now my other pet peeve is in Sonar. I created a DFHS Note name template but Sonar will not remember to use it each time I open the project. I have to right click on the left of the Piano Roll view, click on "Use these note names instead" and call up my template each time I enter the Piano Roll. This is a major pain.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (bmxplosive)

Sun, 05 Jun 2005 22:21:39 GMT

ORIGINAL: Middleman

I finally got the DFHS Rewire working which is a world better than the VST in Sonar. Add the M-Audio Trigger finger and you are not far from the real thing. Having a real drummer program takes it within 95% of real tracking in my opinion.

Anyone know why so many tracks are created using the Rewire plug in? I have sounded all the mics and drums and some of the created tracks seem to have no use.

I posted this question on the Toontrack forum and here is what jbraner said (he also posts on this forum regularly):

swaff,

Look in the back of the manual. Rewire uses outputs #0-13, and it tells you which is which. just set this up once, and save it as a template - then you can be set up for all future songs.

I guess this means you can delete all of the rewire tracks created except #1-13. I'm not sure why it creates so many outputs though. Maybe Rewire's standard maximum is 25 outs (or whatever the number that comes up) and it just creates the max. number instead of actually gathering how many the Rewire program needs.

Swaff

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (Middleman)

Sun, 05 Jun 2005 20:20:50 GMT

I own DFHS but have to admit the BFD interface is way more eligant and intuitive.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (SurfingMusicMan)

Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:58:42 GMT

Gotta be careful. BFD users are rabid. They get pissy when they "think" people are putting down BFD.

If sound is important, I know for a fact DHFS will win every time but BFD still is much easier to use.

I love how fiercly loyal we get to our software. LOL

"I know for a fact???" I'm DFHS owner (and not a BFD owner), and to be honest I love DFHS. But, I think BFD is probably an outstanding product, and doubt that the sound it produces is, for a fact, inferior to DFHS.

Just my 2 cents...

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (j boy)

Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:54:35 GMT

ORIGINAL: FwordNA

Hey jboy, are you talking about the sonar manual? what page? dkfh's help mostly concerns kompakt, which is way too complicated for me. but if there is a way i can create a drum kit in sonar, great. right now, when i load dkfh 2, it chokes my system, after making me wait, and telling me i'm running out of memory. i have 1 gig of ram -- sheesh, what does the program want?

Page 336 in my Sonar 4 manual---> "Creating and Editing a Drum Map".

The program is intended to run with the Direct-from-Disk functioning, not using RAM exclusively...you'll never get it to work that way, I'm afraid. Make sure you download the latest DFD patch from East-West first thing.

And make sure that the MIDI track outputs to your drum map; you do this by clicking the 'OUTPUT' drop down menu and selecting your drum map from the options in the menu that appears.

Good luck!

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (MKS)

Sun, 05 Jun 2005 09:14:12 GMT

ORIGINAL: bmxplosive

ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

ORIGINAL: bmxplosive

Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.

Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

best,

Swaff

Wrong again. BFD also allows tuning of each kit piece, fade options and individual drum 'dampening' is being added in the soon to be released free update to v1.5. BFD also allows automatic velocity and timing randomisation.

Q.

Wrong again? I am confused? What did I say wrong first, and what was wrong second? I think you might have misunderstood my post. I was simply stating that DFHS has some of the same (or similar) features that someone else said BFD has. I wasn't saying BFD doesn't have those things, or that they are not as good as the ones in DFHS. Sorry if I offended you somehow, but I definitely wasn't saying anything negative to BFD.

Swaff

Gotta be careful. BFD users are rabid. They get pissy when they "think" people are putting down BFD.

If sound is important, I know for a fact DHFS will win every time but BFD still is much easier to use.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (bmxplosive)

Sun, 05 Jun 2005 02:36:15 GMT

ORIGINAL: Qwerty69

ORIGINAL: bmxplosive

Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.

Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

best,

Swaff

Wrong again. BFD also allows tuning of each kit piece, fade options and individual drum 'dampening' is being added in the soon to be released free update to v1.5. BFD also allows automatic velocity and timing randomisation.

Q.

Wrong again? I am confused? What did I say wrong first, and what was wrong second? I think you might have misunderstood my post. I was simply stating that DFHS has some of the same (or similar) features that someone else said BFD has. I wasn't saying BFD doesn't have those things, or that they are not as good as the ones in DFHS. Sorry if I offended you somehow, but I definitely wasn't saying anything negative to BFD.

Swaff

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (FwordNA)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:22:48 GMT

Hey jboy, are you talking about the sonar manual? what page? dkfh's help mostly concerns kompakt, which is way too complicated for me. but if there is a way i can create a drum kit in sonar, great. right now, when i load dkfh 2, it chokes my system, after making me wait, and telling me i'm running out of memory. i have 1 gig of ram -- sheesh, what does the program want?

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (Qwerty69)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:02:34 GMT

ORIGINAL: bmxplosive

Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.

Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

best,

Swaff

Wrong again. BFD also allows tuning of each kit piece, fade options and individual drum 'dampening' is being added in the soon to be released free update to v1.5. BFD also allows automatic velocity and timing randomisation.

Q.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (plasmaflow)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 19:31:08 GMT

Thank you to all who responded - the forum is great for so many reasons but the experiences of other members is paramount to me. Choosing gear and software can be expensive. Any help given to an individual like myself before any purchase is invaluable. Both are great products but I think BMXPlosive is correct - my ears will have to make the decision.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (Middleman)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 15:11:16 GMT

I finally got the DFHS Rewire working which is a world better than the VST in Sonar. Add the M-Audio Trigger finger and you are not far from the real thing. Having a real drummer program takes it within 95% of real tracking in my opinion.

Anyone know why so many tracks are created using the Rewire plug in? I have sounded all the mics and drums and some of the created tracks seem to have no use.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (bmxplosive)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 08:04:47 GMT

Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.

Unless I am thinking something different, DFHS allows you to tune each drum also. There is a pitch knob where you can increase or decrease pitch. There is also a fade knob, where you can fine tune to cut off as much or as little of the drum's ring sustain. Someone mentioned BFD having a humanize feature too...DFHS has "Random" and "Alternate" options in which I believe change the velocity randomly and alternate which hands make the hits (L and R).

I think what it is all going to come down to is which kits and sounds does plasmaflow think sound best. If there is fear of not being able to make good fills, rolls, etc, then maybe BFD is the best option. If having a large set of percussion instruments is wanted in addition to drumkits, DFHS would be a good option. We've seen here that there are happy users on both sides of the fence. Both options sound amazing. I would suggest really taking time to listen to the demo sounds and then making your choice.

In my opinion, the biggest thing to look at, besides how they sound, is:

BFD has predefined rolls and fills - could make your programming easier
DFHS has bleeding - might be some sound you are specifically looking for

BFD does not have a set of percussion instruments other than drums, as DFHS does
DFHS has issues with Cakewalk's VST and Rewire or a workaround is the solution (BFD doesn't seem to have this issue, at least I haven't heard anyone say anything about it)

BFD sounds - http://www.fxpansion.com/product-bfd-mp3s.php

BFD users' work
http://www.blakelindberg.com/mp3/wobblee_4_25_05.mp3
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/kidloop_music.htm

DFHS sounds - http://www.toontrack.com/demos.shtml

DFHS users' work
http://guitarbattle.cifraclub.terra.com.br/mp3/aisse-gartner-heart-heat.mp3
http://www.mrgroove.nl/songs/got_to_go.mp3

I think either way will be a good turnout.

best,

Swaff

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (kiwisdontdrinktea)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 05:09:57 GMT

ORIGINAL: jayhill

However, with DFHS, with the end product you get as many separate tracks of audio as there are mics on a real set when you record, so it IS very realistic. By all accounts, both BFD and DFHS sound incredible, but DFHS is more like dealing with real drums.

BFD is also very realistic. BFD has 11 direct mics (tracks) and 3 ambient (stereo) tracks so BFD is, in your words, "more like dealing with real drums" also.

The 11 direct mics are kick (2), snare (2), hi-hat (1), toms (3), cymbals (3)

The 3 ambient/stereo mics are overheads, room, and PZM

I think BFD is excellent. I do not have DFHS so I cannot make comparitive statements.

Regards,

Jeff

Yeah a lot of what I read about BFD before this post did not seem too accurate. BFD allows you to do all that Jef said and more, including tuning the drums. IN addition as Jeff said you can route all teh mics out to SONAR very simply and make your own mix their or do it all in BFD. Besides that it comes standard with 5 kits with extension pack for a lot more.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (bmxplosive)

Sat, 04 Jun 2005 03:00:05 GMT

ORIGINAL: FwordNA

Hey MKS, where does one get the Diretixer?

ORIGINAL: bmxplosive

As MKS mentioned, you could use DirectiXer if you insist on using DFHS as a VST (I haven't used this but several people have attested to it's usefulness). The website for it can be found at http://www.tonewise.com/DirectiXer .

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (j boy)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:40:19 GMT

FWordNA, it isn't that big a deal to create (not download) a drum map. You only have to spend a half hour or so and do it once and then it's done. Check out the manual, it's easy, believe me.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (FwordNA)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:15:19 GMT

Hey MKS, where does one get the Diretixer? Allz I really want from dkfh is one acoustic drum kit to add in to my tunes. I don't care whether the kit has a felt mallat or whatever. I'm easy to pls. Typical of how I do things, I bought dkfh 2 and come to find I have to down load drum maps, blah blah... And I'm still trying to master sonar. so, i say to myself, throw away dkfh and use the cheesy tts-1 or find something simple and easy, with all appropriate apologies to those here who elevate toil to some higher value. For me, I use to play music, but have parkinsons. so I'm creating music, but I am not into the tech side, but can't really avoid it, you know what i mean, but surely I don't worship it as an end in itself. I just want easy -- sorry guyz!

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (j boy)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:59:20 GMT

FWIW the user interface (basically N.I. Kompakt) in DFH2 isn't much of an issue for me, as it doesn't get come into play very much in my workflow. Choose your set then you're done with that. I guess the GUI in BFD is fun, but that's not what I'm after at the end of the day.

Most of the time I spend in mixing the individual tracks in Sonar, especially in finding the right combinations of compression, EQ, reverb, etc. and also the little tricks in MIDI like doubling a cymbal hit on the left with one on the right to get a fuller sound but with different velocities for right and left. The biggest challenge personally is in EQing cymbals and hats to sound real. Any suggestions are always welcome.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (SurfingMusicMan)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:51:49 GMT

the audio tracks that I end up with in BFD (14 tracks) look and sound exactly like real drums

I didn't know BFD gave you audio tracks like that. If thats the case, I would have to think that BFD is the superior product because it has an easier to use interface, you have control over where the mics are placed (DFHS doesn't have that ability), and it apparently has humanizing options (DFHS has random hits, but not a humanizing option).

I think both DFHS and BFD should be available in a "lite" version.

I agree. I think its ridiculous to have all those types of drums. Of course, since I have all the options with DFHS, I'm always fiddling with it, which is kind of fun. But all I really care about is having 1 (ok, maybe 2) good set(s). I purchased DFHS because of the bleeding and random hits capabilities.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (j boy)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 17:21:40 GMT

ORIGINAL: Harvey Cedars

Truthfully I have BFD, Artist Drums, Battery 1 and Studio Kits, And I always wind up using the Old Drum Kits From Hell 1 and DR008 as my drum samples/player of choice. They always just seem to fit into my mixes better than all the fancy schmancy monsta mega drum thingies out there.

I'm with you there, Harv.

I'm using Toontrack's Drumkit From Hell 2 precisely because I can't see loading up 35-40 GB of samples on my hard drive. Both Toontrack (DFHS) and FXpansion (BFD) market their respective mega-sampled offerings to simulate real drums. Well, I've worked with real drummers and they don't haul twenty drum kits around with them.. they've got one really good kit. And that's all I really need if I'm trying to convince listeners that I used a real drummer on my tracks.

BTW - I think both DFHS and BFD should be available in a "lite" version. Well, that's sort of what DFH2 is I guess.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (kab)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:57:33 GMT

I dont have any experience w/ BFD, but am totally happy w/ DHFS. My wish list for this app is quite small indeed, and the app is well suited towards rock drumming.

whereas in DFHS there are 4

The Sonar kit in DHFS can have 5 toms on it " />

In any case, both seem to have gotten thier samples from actual recorded kits. From what I read, it does look like you can bigger / more varied kits with DHFS, but also need a pretty hefty rig to use it if you arent a bit careful w/ what options you select. (2gb of ram works well for it). Also know that there are no effects whatsoever on any of DHFS's sounds, so to get high end results, you'll be doing a certain amount of tweaking after you bounce your tracks.

If you have the rig, and don't mind a quirky install and workflow, I'd say DHFS is what you want.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (jayhill)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 16:21:53 GMT

After you are finished programming the drums with DFHS, you "bounce" out the miked tracks, so that you have 10 or so audio tracks (eg, Kick, snaretop, snarebottom, Tom1, Tom2, floortom, high hat, ambience, overhead---these all contain bleeding from the other drums of course). With this process, after you've finished programming and bouncing, the tracks of drum audio look and sound exactly like they would as if you had recorded real drums.

Unless I'm missing something major in your message, BFD is exactly the same as how you describe above.

Where did you hear, and more importantly, what did you hear that made BFD somehow different than the process you describe?

As for bleed, BFD contains this also; however, I tend to use (not all the time though) the solo option for both kick and snare (when bouncing these tracks to audio) to "act as a perfect gate for bleed". I'm finding that I can then raise my ambient (stereo) mics up higher while still maintaining a cleaner and more full sounding mix IMO.

But yes, the audio tracks that I end up with in BFD (14 tracks) look and sound exactly like real drums, because they are real drums. They have been mic'd with, according to the BFD manual, mics costing in excess of $15,000 each (I believe they were AKG C-12's) and the kits are recorded at 46 (or 48?) velocity layers.

So the 'quality of actual drum sound' I'm getting with BFD is the same as a drumset mic'd from a professional high-end studio - and I'm sure you feel the same about DFHS. The one drawback (and that goes for any drum modules that are programmed) is still attaining a 100% live sounding performance, although that is starting to get closer and closer, where if the drum programming is done well and some of the Humanize options in BFD are used well, it is now taking some real listening analysis to determine the difference.

Regards,

Jeff

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (Harvey Cedars)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:02:46 GMT

Truthfully I have BFD, Artist Drums, Battery 1 and Studio Kits, And I always wind up using the Old Drum Kits From Hell 1 and DR008 as my drum samples/player of choice. They always just seem to fit into my mixes better than all the fancy schmancy monsta mega drum thingies out there.

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (SurfingMusicMan)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:51:52 GMT

(assuming you'd done a good job recording).

I meant to say (assuming you'd done a good job PROGRAMMING).

RE: Drum Kit From Hell vs. BFD Drums (bmxplosive)

Fri, 03 Jun 2005 11:51:15 GMT

ORIGINAL: FwordNA

Hey BMX, can you refer me to the toontrack explanation of how to get the DKFH to work in Sonar. I don't have rewire and I'm having just the problem you described -- that is, the inability to run the thing as a VST. Thanks!

The forum topic for this issue is on Toontrack's site at http://www.toontrack.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=tips;action=display;num=1081446198 .

As long as you did the little Rewire install package that came with DFHS, this should work (When you install, you have the option of installing 4 different packages....Superior Drummer, Superior Cocktail, Superior Percussion, and Superior Rewire....all are the msi install packages). Installing the Superior Rewire simply added three EXE files to my VST folder...RewireDrummer.exe, RewireCocktail.exe, and RewirePercussionist.exe. If those files ARE in your VST folder, the process mentioned following should work as Rewire:

I see you have Sonar 4 PE and that is also what I have. I didn't install Rewire as a program specifically into Sonar, only the install files that came with Superior. I think it just works with DFHS. To use Rewire, I click on the DXi button and then that brings up a little dialogue box. Next, click the + sign and then click on either "RewireDrummer" or "SuperiorDrummer." I can't remember which one it is. When it brigs up the options, the default checks should work, just make sure the Outputs are set to "ALL" and NOT "Only the first output." I hope this works out for you.

As MKS mentioned, you could use DirectiXer if you insist on using DFHS as a VST (I haven't used this but several people have attested to it's usefulness). The website for it can be found at http://www.tonewise.com/DirectiXer .

Best,

Swaff